Thundercats Ep 15 Trials of Lion-O Pt 1 Discussion

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Lion-o better run.

Lion-O and Panthera running away from home, with Panthro and his thundertank hot on their trails...
_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

And the soap opera continues... I wonder when Claudus' long lost child shows up?

Sooner or later it will be revealed. The third possible heir to the throne.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Sooner or later it will be revealed. The third possible heir to the throne.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

If its a daughter of Claudus, Panthro will finally have a love interest.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

If its a daughter of Claudus, Panthro will finally have a love interest.

And things will get "really hot and hairy" from there...

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

And things will get "really hot and hairy" from there...

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

She can also have a "discussion" with Cheetara about what she's been doing with her brothers.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

She can also have a "discussion" with Cheetara about what she's been doing with her brothers.

Uh-oh Cheetara you better watch out! Things will not end well for Cheetara...

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

even if she had chosen to fight and Kaynar killed Tygra they would've been outnumbered and outmatched.

Yep, the fight was lost once Tygra was beaten. Lion-O and Cheetara weren't making any ground in their own bouts. Kaynar free to attack either of them. Cheetara suffering an emotional blow for losing her mate.

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

Yep, the fight was lost once Tygra was beaten. Lion-O and Cheetara weren't making any ground in their own bouts. Kaynar free to attack either of them. Cheetara suffering an emotional blow for losing her mate.

I still think tygra would've moved and was waiting for the right moment. The writing was just bad. I would've liked it if went down like this : when attic and kaynar jumper out instead of tygra going down there he stayed up on the hill and use his sniper rifle and cheetara runs in and pulls lion-o out of trouble the captured lizards see the cats still helped them and escape in the confusion. Slithe atticus and kaynar retreat and tygra says hey lion-o I saved your tail again. You know that was the usual pattern before

[KaleRylan]

It's okay for the Cats to lose a fight. The problem is that the writers don't seem to know how to do that without having them fight like idiots. Which is unfortunate, because it undermines every single character on the show.

It makes it look like the cats are slightly retarded, and it makes it so the villains aren't credible threats because they only win when the cats are being dumb.

Better written fights, where the cats win, or lose, based on luck and circumstance rather than plot-based stupidity would make the whole thing better. Better heroes, scarier villains, etc.

I know I use the Last Airbender as an example a lot, but once again Thundercats could learn something from it here. That is a show where the heroes win, lose, and escape regularly without ever having to behave truly dumb to explain their losses. They lose because the villains are strong.

They need to give the villains an upgrade. Give them all new weapons that make them credible threats to the cats with the cats fighting at full strength. Use it to write more dangerous fights and to sell toys. Win, win. Atticus and Caynar are a step in the right direction, but not quite far enough.

[Singe]

Two episodes in Season 2 and not a single, "Thunder, Thunder, Thundercats. HOOOOOOO!"

So far the addition to Atticus and Kaynar got two wins over them.

I'm still waiting to see if the Ancient Spirits of Evil will have a talking part.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

Two episodes in Season 2 and not a single, "Thunder, Thunder, Thundercats. HOOOOOOO!"

So far the addition to Atticus and Kaynar got two wins over them.

I'm still waiting to see if the Ancient Spirits of Evil will have a talking part.

I agree completely, I get that they're trying to make it more special and less repetative by not having it happen every time, but let's face it. It's the payoff to the entire freeking concept. I WANT to see him say it. It causes that tingly nostalgic sensation.

DO IT MORE.

Yeah, I'm liking the new villains. Need a little bit of work, but definitely a good addition.

[stac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

It's okay for the Cats to lose a fight. The problem is that the writers don't seem to know how to do that without having them fight like idiots. Which is unfortunate, because it undermines every single character on the show.

It makes it look like the cats are slightly retarded, and it makes it so the villains aren't credible threats because they only win when the cats are being dumb.

Better written fights, where the cats win, or lose, based on luck and circumstance rather than plot-based stupidity would make the whole thing better. Better heroes, scarier villains, etc.

I know I use the Last Airbender as an example a lot, but once again Thundercats could learn something from it here. That is a show where the heroes win, lose, and escape regularly without ever having to behave truly dumb to explain their losses. They lose because the villains are strong.

They need to give the villains an upgrade. Give them all new weapons that make them credible threats to the cats with the cats fighting at full strength. Use it to write more dangerous fights and to sell toys. Win, win. Atticus and Caynar are a step in the right direction, but not quite far enough.

Exactly. Notice how the ThunderCats sometimes conveniently forget their abilities or are depowered significantly, especially when it could be of most use of them.

Take the battle at the end of episode 14.
Cheetara forgets her super-speed, even when she could have used it to save Tygra. Tygra simply smirks like a fool at Lino-O; so much for all those lessons in battle strategy with Claudus. Lion-O, who previously held his own against an entire lizard battalion, seemingly finds it difficult to take on Slithe.

Or take the latest debacle that was their capture in episode 15. I understand the writers wanted to show the viewers that the Cats were taken by surprise but this was ridiculous.

Cheetara once again mysteriously forgets to use super-speed, even to go to Tygra’s help. Lion-O loses the Sword due to a single shot, then basically stands there waiting to be captured.
Mr. Fantastic... sorry… Panthro, who knocked out all three mutants in less than five seconds last time, was nowhere to be seen! The writers had no idea what to do with him; they didn’t even bother showing him during this “fight.”

Consistency does not seem to be an ability the writers possess.

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

Two episodes in Season 2 and not a single, "Thunder, Thunder, Thundercats. HOOOOOOO!"

So far the addition to Atticus and Kaynar got two wins over them.

I'm still waiting to see if the Ancient Spirits of Evil will have a talking part.

I never really saw the point of lion-o doing the whole thundercats hooo thing in this series.

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

I never really saw the point of lion-o doing the whole thundercats hooo thing in this series.

It's the show's version of a comeback/turnaround to win.

Superman has his theme music play as he turns it around.

Naruto has their own comeback music when the fight turns around.

The main point is to excite the fans that their hero is going to win, like WWE excite when a wrestler has the crowd going wild by chaining signature moves to set up for the finisher.

[hollowdheart]

Does anyone know how long Paul Giacoppo has been writing episodes?

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stac

Exactly. Notice how the ThunderCats sometimes conveniently forget their abilities or are depowered significantly, especially when it could be of most use of them.

Take the battle at the end of episode 14.
Cheetara forgets her super-speed, even when she could have used it to save Tygra. Tygra simply smirks like a fool at Lino-O; so much for all those lessons in battle strategy with Claudus. Lion-O, who previously held his own against an entire lizard battalion, seemingly finds it difficult to take on Slithe.

Or take the latest debacle that was their capture in episode 15. I understand the writers wanted to show the viewers that the Cats were taken by surprise but this was ridiculous.

Cheetara once again mysteriously forgets to use super-speed, even to go to Tygra’s help. Lion-O loses the Sword due to a single shot, then basically stands there waiting to be captured.
Mr. Fantastic... sorry… Panthro, who knocked out all three mutants in less than five seconds last time, was nowhere to be seen! The writers had no idea what to do with him; they didn’t even bother showing him during this “fight.”

Consistency does not seem to be an ability the writers possess.

Well it seems they remembered to have her Super Speed sound effects go off as she acrobats around Atticus in 14.

Also Lion-O forgot to fire the claws to grapple to the side of the mountain in 15.

[hollowdheart]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

Well it seems they remembered to have her Super Speed sound effects go off as she acrobats around Atticus in 14.

Also Lion-O forgot to fire the claws to grapple to the side of the mountain in 15.

Maybe the claws only work with the sword in tandem? I blame the writers though. That or him passing out before he could use them

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

I never really saw the point of lion-o doing the whole thundercats hooo thing in this series.

this makes me sad.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stac

Exactly. Notice how the ThunderCats sometimes conveniently forget their abilities or are depowered significantly, especially when it could be of most use of them.

Take the battle at the end of episode 14.
Cheetara forgets her super-speed, even when she could have used it to save Tygra. Tygra simply smirks like a fool at Lino-O; so much for all those lessons in battle strategy with Claudus. Lion-O, who previously held his own against an entire lizard battalion, seemingly finds it difficult to take on Slithe.

Or take the latest debacle that was their capture in episode 15. I understand the writers wanted to show the viewers that the Cats were taken by surprise but this was ridiculous.

Cheetara once again mysteriously forgets to use super-speed, even to go to Tygra’s help. Lion-O loses the Sword due to a single shot, then basically stands there waiting to be captured.
Mr. Fantastic... sorry… Panthro, who knocked out all three mutants in less than five seconds last time, was nowhere to be seen! The writers had no idea what to do with him; they didn’t even bother showing him during this “fight.”

Consistency does not seem to be an ability the writers possess.

I will be nice to the writers on some of the things. I think they have so much to pack in one episode that they leave out stuff that Adults would pick up, but not kids.

That shot was to the back, he was not expecting it.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

Does anyone know how long Paul Giacoppo has been writing episodes?

I thought he only did the flower arch.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

And the soap opera continues... I wonder when Claudus' long lost child shows up?

Come find out his daughter is the rightful heir to the throne and can use SBS better than lion-o.

[SirSapphire]

You people have worn me out. I'll be back when Part 2 airs. I'll be hanging with the bronies if you need me.

[hollowdheart]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

I thought he only did the flower arch.

I was talking about if he had written "love triangle/romance", before it. I checked on the internet, and for some reason it said he worked on HP and PS/SS, which i find odd since i own in and his name isn't anywhere on the credits.

[Balgus82]

Dan Norton told me once that on the pre-animation side of things they only have about 3 weeks to do everything for each episode. They're probably forced to cut a few corners.

[Singe]

Why would they forget their powers?

The show needed the two new villains to beat the Thundercats, but not while the Thundercats are fighting at their best.

There is a difference between losing and losing after giving it everything you had.

Also the love triangle conflict could be written as affecting the minds of Lion-O, Tygra, and Cheetara.

Lion-O can forget his powers at times since he's got a lot of things in his head at once.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

Why would they forget their powers?

The show needed the two new villains to beat the Thundercats, but not while the Thundercats are fighting at their best.

There is a difference between losing and losing after giving it everything you had.

Also the love triangle conflict could be written as affecting the minds of Lion-O, Tygra, and Cheetara.

Lion-O can forget his powers at times since he's got a lot of things in his head at once.

I disagree, it is plot convenience.

I was in the military; all we ever do was train. We train so it would be like second nature to us. Didn't matter what was going on at home, people would stick to the mission until it was done.

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

I disagree, it is plot convenience.

I was in the military; all we ever do was train. We train so it would be like second nature to us. Didn't matter what was going on at home, people would stick to the mission until it was done.

Panthro is the military guy, the rest are not. Tygra was in training. Cheetara is of a different order that would have their own ways.

Lion-O is still green and needs a lot of discipline training to go through, not to mention the list baggage.

Lost his father.
Lost his Kingdom.
Most of his people wiped out.
Has to unite the other animals to beat Mumm-ra.
Broken heart.
Personal issues with Tygra and Cheetara.
Difficult quest to find the other stones.
Constantly being hunted by Mumm-ra's army.
Teenager
King responsibilities.
Team Leader responsibilities.

[Balgus82]

We all know that they don't spend all their free time training. Most of their time is spent traveling.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

We all know that they don't spend all their free time training. Most of their time is spent traveling.

How many years did they train? Cheetara, since 12.

You don't forget.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

Panthro is the military guy, the rest are not. Tygra was in training. Cheetara is of a different order that would have their own ways.

Lion-O is still green and needs a lot of discipline training to go through, not to mention the list baggage.

Lost his father.
Lost his Kingdom.
Most of his people wiped out.
Has to unite the other animals to beat Mumm-ra.
Broken heart.
Personal issues with Tygra and Cheetara.
Difficult quest to find the other stones.
Constantly being hunted by Mumm-ra's army.
Teenager
King responsibilities.
Team Leader responsibilities.

I am referring to cheetara. Her order is very discipline.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Some people are die hard tygra fans, you're not going to win. Lion-o is bad, tygra is god.

Lion-O is the supposed to be star of the show, he has "the rights" to be the "Thunder-god". Tygra should stick with making sandwiches for Lion-O like Big Snarf said way back.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Lion-O is the supposed to be star of the show, he has "the rights" to be the "Thunder-god". Tygra should stick with making sandwiches for Lion-O like Big Snarf said way back.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Lion-O is the supposed to be star of the show, he has "the rights" to be the "Thunder-god". Tygra should stick with making sandwiches for Lion-O like Big Snarf said way back.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

More like "Lion-O in the Middle." Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Lion-O is the supposed to be star of the show, he has "the rights" to be the "Thunder-god". Tygra should stick with making sandwiches for Lion-O like Big Snarf said way back.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

Yeap, Lion-O is such weak sauce that he would have to surround himself with individuals who could do little more than, "making sandwiches".

If Lion-O haters wanted to take a piss on him, they wouldnt have to. His fans do it for him

Now, once he completes these trials everyone around him wont have to be weak in order for him to be strong. Yeah, everyone's happy.

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

If Lion-O haters wanted to take a piss on him, they wouldnt have to. His fans do it for him

I don't want to be thought of as a Lion-O hater. I don't hate Lion-O. I just expect more from him sometimes. I rather like him in the episodes where he doesn't do stupid things. The premiere. Berbils. etc.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

I don't want to be thought of as a Lion-O hater. I don't hate Lion-O. I just expect more from him sometimes. I rather like him in the episodes where he doesn't do stupid things. The premiere. Berbils. etc.

Neither do I, which is why it's irritating that anyone who has one negative thing to say about the guy is labeled an irrational hater.

The point of that last was to poke fun at some of the conflicting post in here. You want him to be some great leader who everyone respects, yet some of the stuff in here would suggest Lion-O be a whiny brat with a pocket full of excuses. Or, like the post I qouted, someone who needs to be around people he can walk all over. Nothing strong or awe inspiring about that

[L08e16o]

This is a cartoon. Writers are the ones who make him weak.

Weak sauce, I haven't heard that since the 90s on the basketball court.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

This is a cartoon. Writers are the ones who make him weak.

Weak sauce, I haven't heard that since the 90s on the basketball court.

LOL, I was born in the early 90's, but I doubt I was toddaling around on basketball courts. Eh, they say it's all circling around. "Sauce" was actually the more delicate version.

If every problem we have with a character is suppose to "blamed" on the writers then what is to be said about character growth and development? How do we know its a weakness of the writer, or a character flaw? These characters are not suppose to be cookie cutter perfect. What you might call a weakness, may actually be an intentional flaw intended for that character.

If all the problems we have with characters are to be blamed on the writers, then why is Lion-O the only one with this crutch? How come everyone else is written off as bad, while Lion-O is just a victim of shoddy writers ?

[CCDustyV]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

If all the problems we have with characters are to be blamed on the writers, then why is Lion-O the only one with this crutch? How come everyone else is written off as bad, while Lion-O is just a victim of shoddy writers ?

No, Lion O isn't, they all have this issue of shoddy writers

[Singe]

Two episodes in and it has been far to long not to see Mumm-ra inject Super Happy Fun Time Anger Go Go Juice into his bony hide.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

This is a cartoon. Writers are the ones who make him weak.

Agreed. There are tons of different ways to do it without making him weak.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Agreed. There are tons of different ways to do it without making him weak.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

It seems all the TCats come down with amnesia, when it comes to remembering their skills and abilities in a fight.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

It seems all the TCats come down with amnesia, when it comes to remembering their skills and abilities in a fight.

Worst part JMD is involved in it. With or without Jelenic on his 'tail', "dictating him" one way or the other.
_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCDustyV

No, Lion O isn't, they all have this issue of shoddy writers

Thank you, that was my point.

How did lion-o know the stone was in the AP?

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Agreed. There are tons of different ways to do it without making him weak.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

I agree, but that is what they seem like they are doing.

It seems like mummra is the real test, not tygra.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

LOL, I was born in the early 90's, but I doubt I was toddaling around on basketball courts. Eh, they say it's all circling around. "Sauce" was actually the more delicate version.

If every problem we have with a character is suppose to "blamed" on the writers then what is to be said about character growth and development? How do we know its a weakness of the writer, or a character flaw? These characters are not suppose to be cookie cutter perfect. What you might call a weakness, may actually be an intentional flaw intended for that character.

If all the problems we have with characters are to be blamed on the writers, then why is Lion-O the only one with this crutch? How come everyone else is written off as bad, while Lion-O is just a victim of shoddy writers ?

Hey, my nephew was dribbling with his left hand (right handed) at 4.

I am not saying that. I am saying everyone is a victim of shoddy writing.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

I agree, but that is what they seem like they are doing.

It seems like mummra is the real test, not tygra.

Yes, and no. I think Lion-O inferiority complex needs to be taken care of. He and his brother won't ever reach a place of harmony, if Lion-O is constantly fighting to prove he's right and Tygra's wrong. Maybe that's why his answers to all of Tygra's suggestions are, "I'm the king ". He wont allow them to follow any of the suggestions his brother may have, because he's afraid they'll begin to see him as the better option.SPOILER TEXT I think the Tygra trial was a test, regardless of Mumm-Ra. Lion-O failing it just proves he needs to work it out. Maybe this is the type of problem that calls for both parties to be present. Not just Lion-O, and Lion-O's subconscious.

[OmenBill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

Yes, and no. I think Lion-O inferiority complex needs to be taken care of. He and his brother won't ever reach a place of harmony, if Lion-O is constantly fighting to prove he's right and Tygra's wrong. Maybe that's why his answers to all of Tygra's suggestions are, "I'm the king ". He wont allow them to follow any of the suggestions his brother may have, because he's afraid they'll begin to see him as the better option. I think the Tygra trial was a test, regardless of Mumm-Ra. Lion-O failing it just proves he needs to work it out. Maybe this is the type of problem that calls for both parties to be present. Not just Lion-O, and Lion-O's subconscious.

First off "Hi everybody!"

This, honestly I think Lion-O if he does make it back from the spirit realm, is most likely going to train under Tigra in later episodes. At this point the writers have made it clear that Lion-O doubts his abilities to be king, so far Tigra is still able to beat his brother up whether he's the real Tigra or the AP Tigra, and Tigra looks down on his brother because in his eyes Lion-O never had the same dedication that he had in the past. Plus the real Tigra said you could learn a few things from us.

Now if Lion-O starts to learn under Tigra, the character roles change to student and teacher rather than just brothers. Possibly a stronger bond between the two characters, since Tigra learned everything from Claudius. Hopefully overcoming their differences in that seem to be the cause of the little quips and arguments they throw at each other.

This of course is just a theory, I don't know for sure, but hopefully in some way shape or form this rivalry between the two of them gets settled. Since the Thundercats are suppose to be a close team, pretty much a family, and they haven't been a very good team these past couple of episodes.

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmenBill

First off "Hi everybody!"

This, honestly I think Lion-O if he does make it back from the spirit realm, is most likely going to train under Tigra in later episodes. At this point the writers have made it clear that Lion-O doubts his abilities to be king, so far Tigra is still able to beat his brother up whether he's the real Tigra or the AP Tigra, and Tigra looks down on his brother because in his eyes Lion-O never had the same dedication that he had in the past. Plus the real Tigra said you could learn a few things from us.

Now if Lion-O starts to learn under Tigra, the character roles change to student and teacher rather than just brothers. Possibly a stronger bond between the two characters, since Tigra learned everything from Claudius. Hopefully overcoming their differences in that seem to be the cause of the little quips and arguments they throw at each other.

This of course is just a theory, I don't know for sure, but hopefully in some way shape or form this rivalry between the two of them gets settled. Since the Thundercats are suppose to be a close team, pretty much a family, and they haven't been a very good team these past couple of episodes.

It will probably be more like he learns from everyone to become a more well rounded character.

Just for the sake of the series, I would like to see a Monarchy vs. Democracy clash. Something like Lion-O pushing the King title around against a cat clan that elects their leaders.

[OmenBill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

It will probably be more like he learns from everyone to become a more well rounded character.

Just for the sake of the series, I would like to see a Monarchy vs. Democracy clash. Something like Lion-O pushing the King title around against a cat clan that elects their leaders.

It's possible, but Lion-O did as far as we can tell win all the other cat's trials. Where as he couldn't win against the AP Tigra. I'm not saying he doesn't have things to learn from the other cats, but it seems like he still has more to learn in order to overcome whatever it is holding him back whenever these two clash. Plus it's that story like irony "sometimes you don't know enough about the people closest to you".

As for the Monarchy vs Democracy, it could be pretty interesting to see, but that sort of takes away from the way we've seen most of the cat people live which was under a monarchy. I don't know if they would change their leadership positions so quickly after they lost the Cat Kingdom, unless we're talking about a sub group that weren't a part of Thundera.