Thundercats Ep 16 Trials of Lion-O Pt 2 Discussion

[merlin]

i missed new thundercat ep

[Ravenxl7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Moore

Thundercats Episode 16 Review

Thundercats Episode 16 Trials Of Lion-O Part 2 HD Screen Caps

220 HD screen caps this week! Enjoy folks.

Thank you very much Joe for continuing to give us many HD screen caps from the episodes. I'm having a hard time deciding what to turn into a background next, lol.

Also, there's only 219 screen caps. This one was in the list twice.

[Singe]

Cheetara should dump Tygra and quit the team at this point. It seems there isn't anything for her to stick with the group except scorn and hardship.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

Cheetara should dump Tygra and quit the team at this point. It seems there isn't anything for her to stick with the group except scorn and hardship.

Well like I said before, we need "The Real Cheetara" maybe from the OS with "upgraded features", thus we needed a "switch"

Even Dan Norton himself "admitted NS 'Cheetara's wrongness' ".

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreepySariFan

The sarcasm blew my brain.

You're welcome.

[CreepySariFan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Well like I said before, we need "The Real Cheetara" maybe from the OS with "upgraded features", thus we needed a "switch"

Even Dan Norton himself "admitted NS 'Cheetara's wrongness' ".

Almost too much like my last girlfriend, I kinda like that.

[SirSapphire]

I'll just say I'd rather have a flawed character than a flat character.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

I'll just say I'd rather have a flawed character than a flat character.

Please and thank you.

Cheetara was boring and flat for the first 13 episodes of this series. Just dull and completely predictable. Nothing engaging about the character at all. All she did was encourage Lion-O when he was feeling down. That's it. She was the stereotypical female lead, only there to emotionally support the male lead. She made no real connection with the audience, which is why so many feel no objection to treating her like a ball to bounce between the two brothers.

Some of you may not like the way she did it, but confessing to Tygra was finally something that she did for herself. Sure she did it to settle some of the tension between the brothers, but ultimately she decided that being with Tygra was something she wanted to do. It's something she has chosen for herself, finally NOTHING TO DO WITH LION-O.

If we're going to complain about how the lead female is written, then lets be honest. Her choice of boyfriend is not what makes her poorly written. It's the fact that the authors have given you no reason to give two shits about her, other than her connection with the male leads. Our inability to empathize with her, or connect with her is what makes her a subpar character. We see no value in her as a person. Who cares if she can fight, this is an action cartoon, everyone has some level of combat ability.

Up until now, she's had no faults. She's be written off as a perfect spot free character without any problems to work on. There was no where for her to go. Up until 13, what could any of us say about Cheetara's flaws or complications? She stays in the background because there is nothing for us to address.

Romance is not a problem. Yes its stereotypical and predictable, but it doesn't have to be a problem. Not as far as development. Oh wow look, Cheetara may actually have a flaw now. She can't think straight because she is being pulled between love and duty. Yeah I would have liked something else, but its better than a totem pole with tits. Cheetara before 13 could have been replaced with a tape recorder. As of now, I see the potential for her to GROW into something more.

As for the anorexic ho thing, the creators are not perfect. They can say stupid shit too.

As for Singe's reply:

Cheetara not wanting to see her boyfriend get his head lobbed off is not a problem. boyfriend or not, THEY ARE SUPPOSE TO STICK TOGETHER. I think Lion-O sacrificing Tygra is worse than Cheetara wanting to save him. Don't forget, the three of them were in danger because Lion-O wanted to be an angry jerk. He should have been happy that they even bothered to follow him after he told them to stay behind.

She failed to protect Lion-O not because she didn't try, but because she was being held hostage. She wasn't just standing around shooting the breeze.

What sound reason did she have to believe Lion-O survived that fall? The word of a emotionally distraught 8 year old? Like she said, the time for mourning would come later. Now its time for the TCats to finish what Lion-O started, so that his death is not in vain.

Oh yeah, Cheetara was consistent before 13. Consistently boring. Her lack of development is just as detrimental to her character as a potential derailment.

[moreprimeland]

I was a little disappointed in both parts of the trials, but can live with it. That Lion-O failed and still lived, which was fine, but then there were no consequences, so I chalked it up to being a kids show and they couldn't really let him die. The Tygra challenge was pretty good and because of their ongoing conflict, figured Lion-O would fail that one. In the living world, having Tygra not rise to the challenge of leader was a bit disappointing, after all he was the one who trained his entire life to be a leader..but then again, I know he was expected to willingly follow Lion-O, so Tygra's faith in his abilities had to be shaken. Oh well, I'm not sure these eps really did anything to advance the story but they were still pretty nice visually. I'm ready for the next ep.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

Have Lion-O try to persuade his brothers girlfriend to date him instead? That would make Lion-O look like a really shitty brother.

You make the female Thundercats sound like commodities. Lol, when was she not nice and caring? In what situation since this season premiered, has Cheetara been unreasonable with Lion-O?

You sure love lion-o, not.

[Lunchie]

I remember reading early interviews with the creators regarding this show. The way they talked, they seemed they were trying to make a "young-adult" or a "more mature" cartoon show.

When doing so, I imagine that you would need to be consistent with your characters. Futurama, Family Guy, and other comedy cartoon shows can have characters acting one way an episode and a completely different way another episode because of the genre. If you're being serious however, than characters need to have a set personality and (pending alien mind control) act within their parameters barring outside stimulus.

First of all, I don't like blaming Cheetara for my hatred of everything from episode 13 and onward. I DO blame the writer's for using her as a spoon to sir up the drama that frankly was not necessary or welcome. Trust me, I would RATHER be blaming Tygra! Unfortunately though, Tygra has been the most consistent alongside Lion-O (save occasionally forgetting his previous life lessons) in that he's still a smug Jack-Ass with a "reported" soft side (do not give me the *he probably had it hard as a kid* reasoning, the show has yet to make me buy it) and he hasn't strayed too far from these parameters.

Cheetara was the mediator between Tygra and Lion-O, the voice of reason when they started butting heads. She was the body guard who took the entire group as her charge. She was the one telling Lion-O he could when everyone had/or still was telling him he can't. Now what is she? Surrendering herself to the generals to ensure ONLY Tygra's safety? Constantly worrying about Tygra, the capable warrior, instead of the welfare of Lion-O, her king, or welfare of the team as whole?

Hell if she had a moment in the show when she said "you know, I've devoted my life to the service of others without focusing on what I want for the majority of my young life. Is this really my entire life? My future? is this really what I want?" Then I would have bought it as development (questionable development but development none the less) and wouldn't be here on this forum complaining.

Also ( I really am sorry, I have just really had a lot on my mind), Lion-O willing to keep fighting when Tygra is captured, MAY have had a flavoring of malice due to the love triangle, but, given who they were up against, it was probably their only way out alive (save a Panthro intervention).

My blame is on the writing. Maybe if the show was guaranteed a 52 episode run, they would have spaced all this out with development. As such, now it's make it or break it. To their credit, I have never been following a show THIS closely (even if it is for the wrong reasons)

I did like this episode and can't wait for the next, because honestly, I can't predict what's going to happen next (for better or worse).

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmenBill

Surrendering and undermining her kings decision against the generals in episode 14. Despite previously choosing to help him in this battle. Not to mention her earlier quote of keeping up the pressure against the enemy.

Kinda hypocritical of her there.

Not being able to protect Lion-O her king later on in episode 15, since he fell to his death. Despite her clerical duty as well as Jaga's wish in keeping an eye on him and keeping him safe.

Well done there.

Her complete lack of faith in somehow Lion-O being alive, since she thought he was soo different in those first episodes. Her playing mediator in keeping the team together is gone as well, as she continues to persuade Wily Kit there is no hope for him returning, despite her resolve in believing in him while they're in prison. Hope was definitely something they needed in there situation especially for the kid cats, even if it was hopeless.

I'm sorry but Cheetara's character is much like this series, she lacks consistency. I don't know where she stands anymore, or what she's going to do next. She says one thing, then acts differently in the same episode or visa versa.

As for this episode itself, if you guys watch that otaku assemble guy on youtube he reviews this series this episodes review pretty much matches my feelings on it. Minus the dramatic headache pauses.

Plus to add Mumm-ra has no problem knocking down the whole team minus 1 in his elderly and weak form first, but when Lion-O is thrown into the mix, even transformed he couldn't do the same thing? Or the Generals being such a threat in previous episodes only to be out done by Lion-O altogether. It seems like every fight now relies on plot convienience. There's no real advantage that I see from either side, unless the plot says the bad guys are gonna win this time.

Plus there really was no mourning time for the team after Lion-O's death. I mean Claudus, Jaga's and Emeric's deaths all seemed very significant to the characters, these were the deaths of the secondary characters. Now when one of the main cast does die (even if we did know he was going to come back) the team save for Wily Kit show very little if any emotion about it. Tygra references him to motivate the team, but really he's more emotional on how every mission worked for Lion-O and not him than the actual loss. Cheetara I already mentioned, I figured Panthro being the soldier he is already knows about loss so he wouldn't break down or anything, but at least acknowledge something about the death. I mean these guys are not only a team, but really a family. They're all they have right now, and if a member goes I'd think it have more of an impact.

I'm really trying to enjoy this series as much as I did in the first few episodes but it's getting harder to.

Excellent.

I really believe the writers didn't have the time to put all that in this episode. There was a lot of stuff going on.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunchie

I remember reading early interviews with the creators regarding this show. The way they talked, they seemed they were trying to make a "young-adult" or a "more mature" cartoon show.

When doing so, I imagine that you would need to be consistent with your characters. Futurama, Family Guy, and other comedy cartoon shows can have characters acting one way an episode and a completely different way another episode because of the genre. If you're being serious however, than characters need to have a set personality and (pending alien mind control) act within their parameters barring outside stimulus.

First of all, I don't like blaming Cheetara for my hatred of everything from episode 13 and onward. I DO blame the writer's for using her as a spoon to sir up the drama that frankly was not necessary or welcome. Trust me, I would RATHER be blaming Tygra! Unfortunately though, Tygra has been the most consistent alongside Lion-O (save occasionally forgetting his previous life lessons) in that he's still a smug Jack-Ass with a "reported" soft side (do not give me the *he probably had it hard as a kid* reasoning, the show has yet to make me buy it) and he hasn't strayed too far from these parameters.

Cheetara was the mediator between Tygra and Lion-O, the voice of reason when they started butting heads. She was the body guard who took the entire group as her charge. She was the one telling Lion-O he could when everyone had/or still was telling him he can't. Now what is she? Surrendering herself to the generals to ensure ONLY Tygra's safety? Constantly worrying about Tygra, the capable warrior, instead of the welfare of Lion-O, her king, or welfare of the team as whole?

Hell if she had a moment in the show when she said "you know, I've devoted my life to the service of others without focusing on what I want for the majority of my young life. Is this really my entire life? My future? is this really what I want?" Then I would have bought it as development (questionable development but development none the less) and wouldn't be here on this forum complaining.

Also ( I really am sorry, I have just really had a lot on my mind), Lion-O willing to keep fighting when Tygra is captured, MAY have had a flavoring of malice due to the love triangle, but, given who they were up against, it was probably their only way out alive (save a Panthro intervention).

My blame is on the writing. Maybe if the show was guaranteed a 52 episode run, they would have spaced all this out with development. As such, now it's make it or break it. To their credit, I have never been following a show THIS closely (even if it is for the wrong reasons)

I did like this episode and can't wait for the next, because honestly, I can't predict what's going to happen next (for better or worse).

I think the characters will be different and will be explored.

We will find out about tygra next (native son) and I think Tygra's relationship with lion-o will grow in a good way.

[Lunchie]

I do think some people think of the Thundercats female characters as objects. I would love for them to have more female characters in the show so their only representation is not Cheetara and Wilykit. Unfortunately, this show is man-fest so far. They are not above criticism for their deviations, but their flips have been for moments or singular episodes. Cheetara flipped on a 12 + episode established personality (boring as some people may think it was, this course of action was not a fix), which is why I bring it up. I think Kit's doing good so far, and I hope Pumrya is interesting as well. (Once again, I respect everyone's personal opinion. This is just mine and I never wish to intentionally give anyone grief)

[OmenBill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Excellent.

I really believe the writers didn't have the time to put all that in this episode. There was a lot of stuff going on.

Honestly they could expand the part episodes out a bit, it seems like this series always thinks it has to finish the story in either an episode or 2 episodes. Why not a part three or a part IV?

I hate comparing it to other series (cause I know there's always a variable not considered in these kinds of comparisons) but that's why I liked Avatar The Last Airbender, it spread it story so well in order to tell the tale, take time for the characters, have a fight or some action, and rap it up in a way that would allow the writers to revisit it in a later episode if they wanted to. Never once do I remember an episode feeling rushed, or lacking something, if it did it's probably because they were going to go into it further on a later ep.

I really wish the Thundercats writers would take a few notes from them.

On a different note, I was surprised to see that Will Friedle wrote this episode.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

You sure love lion-o, not.

Lion-O annoys the hell out of me, but for good reason. Well it makes sense. He gets all of the screen time, but its a double edged sword. We get all the good with the bad. Also, on a more personal note I hate people who DEMAND respect. If you have to DEMAND that people follow you, then you're obviously not that good of a leader. It's not always going to be so. He needed to struggle in order for the audience to see his growth.

This episode I didn't know what to do with myself. Lion-O was IMPRESSIVE AS HELL! AND HE LOOKED GOOD DOING IT TOO! This is so foreign to me, I don't even know what to think about it. I'm terrified he's going to revert back to that whiny little punk who wants everything his way .

[Lunchie]

Some people may call me on my Lion-O love influencing my reactions to these episodes.
Like "Oh, you don't like Tygra, well if Cheetara got together with Lion-O at the end of episode 13 you wouldn't be complaining" Unfortunately, that's does ring with some truth. If she did, it would be a relationship based on the past episodes providing spaced out instances of their development. I am sorry, but the flashbacks were not enough justification.

However, if the same instances occurred only flipped (Lion-O for Tygra) the complete flip in judgement, priorities, and actions, would still seem rather un-becoming of her character. I would probably still be knocking her for choosing to surrender to "save" Lion-O versus keeping her and Tygra alive

As for the Tygra and Cheetara relationship, some people say "She was just being sisterly, or comforting. Lion-O shouldn't have read that much into it." I challenge them with this:

Take every instance of this love triangle and gender swap it. What if Cheetara, a man, was acting the way SHE did with a Girl Lion-O (the exact same, motion for motion, word for word) Not to make assumptions, but I think more people would come out in defense of Lion-O and condemning Man-tara. What do you think?

[Jack-Pumpkinhead]

Wow, another good episode! I was kinda hoping Lion-O would get over his thing with Tygra in the trial, but it's nice to see him get over it in the real world. And Kaynar & Addicus still continue to scare me with all the talk of eating other sentient characters. Overall, very enjoyable.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

Lion-O annoys the hell out of me, but for good reason. Well it makes sense. He gets all of the screen time, but its a double edged sword. We get all the good with the bad. Also, on a more personal note I hate people who DEMAND respect. If you have to DEMAND that people follow you, then you're obviously not that good of a leader. It's not always going to be so. He needed to struggle in order for the audience to see his growth.

This episode I didn't know what to do with myself. Lion-O was IMPRESSIVE AS HELL! AND HE LOOKED GOOD DOING IT TOO! This is so foreign to me, I don't even know what to think about it. I'm terrified he's going to revert back to that whiny little punk who wants everything his way .

I don't think he will revert back to his old way. I think he is a new person.

I think we will finally get what we wanted for a while, more character development from the other cast.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

Have Lion-O try to persuade his brothers girlfriend to date him instead? That would make Lion-O look like a really shitty brother.

You make the female Thundercats sound like commodities. Lol, when was she not nice and caring? In what situation since this season premiered, has Cheetara been unreasonable with Lion-O?

I actually agree with you here. I want them to simply have Lion-o move on. To being alone or being with Pumyra, I don't really care, but just leave Cheetara be.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack-Pumpkinhead

Wow, another good episode! I was kinda hoping Lion-O would get over his thing with Tygra in the trial, but it's nice to see him get over it in the real world. And Kaynar & Addicus still continue to scare me with all the talk of eating other sentient characters. Overall, very enjoyable.

I felt the same, but I remembered that the next episode is about tygra and lion-o finding the lost tiger clan. I think we will see some good T/L bonding.

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

I don't think he will revert back to his old way. I think he is a new person.

I think we will finally get what we wanted for a while, more character development from the other cast.

Damn straight. Not only are we getting episodes that shine a light on other characters (Tygra, the Thunderkittens) but also new Thundercats (Oh Pumyra, I've already fallen in love with you in my own crazy head). For me "Trials Part 2" was worth the previous couple of episodes, after all it's always darkest just before the dawn (which may or may not have been used symbolically in the episode itself, well played).

[Singe]

The one big let down flop for Cheetara so far is no episode focus on her.

Instead with get these little bits from other episodes to build up her character.

In season one she was the role of making Lion-O's and Tygra's tails stiff up.

Maybe Jaga can get off his dead end and say something about her. Even Lion-O didn't bother to ask Jaga about the whole thing Cheetara told him.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

You sure love lion-o, not.

Everyone love Lion . He is the 'Thunder-god'

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

Damn straight. Not only are we getting episodes that shine a light on other characters (Tygra, the Thunderkittens) but also new Thundercats (Oh Pumyra, I've already fallen in love with you in my own crazy head). For me "Trials Part 2" was worth the previous couple of episodes, after all it's always darkest just before the dawn (which may or may not have been used symbolically in the episode itself, well played).

I think the group will be different from now on. I am happy they are finally exploring the other characters.

Tygra, Cheetara, and the kids are overdue.

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

The one big let down flop for Cheetara so far is no episode focus on her.

Instead with get these little bits from other episodes to build up her character.

In season one she was the role of making Lion-O's and Tygra's tails stiff up.

Maybe Jaga can get off his dead end and say something about her. Even Lion-O didn't bother to ask Jaga about the whole thing Cheetara told him.

I just had another weird idea, what if "The Pit" is about Cheetarah teaching Pumyra to fight and stand up for herself in the ring, leading to a sort of hero-worship between them. It would let Cheetarah get a chance to shine a still lay the groundwork for a potential Lion-O/Pumyra romance.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

The one big let down flop for Cheetara so far is no episode focus on her.

Instead with get these little bits from other episodes to build up her character.

In season one she was the role of making Lion-O's and Tygra's tails stiff up.

Maybe Jaga can get off his dead end and say something about her. Even Lion-O didn't bother to ask Jaga about the whole thing Cheetara told him.

I think we will, it might be the pumyra episode.

The only problem I had was cheetara was like no big deal jaga was up in the sky.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Everyone love Lion . He is the 'Thunder-god'

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

That is what I thought too.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

Please and thank you.

Cheetara was boring and flat for the first 13 episodes of this series. Just dull and completely predictable. Nothing engaging about the character at all. All she did was encourage Lion-O when he was feeling down. That's it. She was the stereotypical female lead, only there to emotionally support the male lead. She made no real connection with the audience, which is why so many feel no objection to treating her like a ball to bounce between the two brothers.

Some of you may not like the way she did it, but confessing to Tygra was finally something that she did for herself. Sure she did it to settle some of the tension between the brothers, but ultimately she decided that being with Tygra was something she wanted to do. It's something she has chosen for herself, finally NOTHING TO DO WITH LION-O.

If we're going to complain about how the lead female is written, then lets be honest. Her choice of boyfriend is not what makes her poorly written. It's the fact that the authors have given you no reason to give two shits about her, other than her connection with the male leads. Our inability to empathize with her, or connect with her is what makes her a subpar character. We see no value in her as a person. Who cares if she can fight, this is an action cartoon, everyone has some level of combat ability.

Up until now, she's had no faults. She's be written off as a perfect spot free character without any problems to work on. There was no where for her to go. Up until 13, what could any of us say about Cheetara's flaws or complications? She stays in the background because there is nothing for us to address.

Romance is not a problem. Yes its stereotypical and predictable, but it doesn't have to be a problem. Not as far as development. Oh wow look, Cheetara may actually have a flaw now. She can't think straight because she is being pulled between love and duty. Yeah I would have liked something else, but its better than a totem pole with tits. Cheetara before 13 could have been replaced with a tape recorder. As of now, I see the potential for her to GROW into something more.

As for the anorexic ho thing, the creators are not perfect. They can say stupid shit too.

As for Singe's reply:

Cheetara not wanting to see her boyfriend get his head lobbed off is not a problem. boyfriend or not, THEY ARE SUPPOSE TO STICK TOGETHER. I think Lion-O sacrificing Tygra is worse than Cheetara wanting to save him. Don't forget, the three of them were in danger because Lion-O wanted to be an angry jerk. He should have been happy that they even bothered to follow him after he told them to stay behind.

She failed to protect Lion-O not because she didn't try, but because she was being held hostage. She wasn't just standing around shooting the breeze.

What sound reason did she have to believe Lion-O survived that fall? The word of a emotionally distraught 8 year old? Like she said, the time for mourning would come later. Now its time for the TCats to finish what Lion-O started, so that his death is not in vain.

Oh yeah, Cheetara was consistent before 13. Consistently boring. Her lack of development is just as detrimental to her character as a potential derailment.

I get that you're a feminist, and I respect that. But Cheetara is more than just a female in a show, she's a part of a story. She has a responsibility to be a workable part of the story and the cast. It doesn't matter if she's 'her own woman' if all she ever does is cause friction and problems with the other characters on the show, then she's a problem. If the majority of viewers DON'T LIKE HER, then she's a problem.

This is where once again the staff could learn a thing from the last airbender, a show known for its strong, consistent female characters. Characters that weren't just drama bombs.

As I've said several times, I WANTED her to end up with Tygra. That is not the problem. The problem isn't who she ended up with, or that she's not interested in Lion-o. It's that the whole turn of events has been written like crap. And as someone pointed out, she's suddenly forgotten to be supportive. Her argument that she wasn't leading him on is that she was nice to him because she honestly supports him as king. Okay, then WHY did she totally STOP supporting him when she chose Tygra? Her argument would make a lot more sense if her whole personality hadn't shifted.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

That is what I thought too.

Unfortunately, Jelenic's 'love' for Lion-O is heavily questionable...
But Jelenic's 'hate' for Lion-O is not so questionable.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunchie

My blame is on the writing. Maybe if the show was guaranteed a 52 episode run, they would have spaced all this out with development. As such, now it's make it or break it. To their credit, I have never been following a show THIS closely (even if it is for the wrong reasons)

I did like this episode and can't wait for the next, because honestly, I can't predict what's going to happen next (for better or worse).

I agree completely. It's hard to take the characters seriously because the writing simply leaps around to whatever they decide they want it to do. The show needs to develop consistency more than anything else. If these are their powers, use them the same way, if these are their feelings, then depict them growing and changing linearly, if this is the enemy's strength, depict that consistently. But everything in this show is just SO RANDOM.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

Lion-O annoys the hell out of me, but for good reason. Well it makes sense. He gets all of the screen time, but its a double edged sword. We get all the good with the bad. Also, on a more personal note I hate people who DEMAND respect. If you have to DEMAND that people follow you, then you're obviously not that good of a leader. It's not always going to be so. He needed to struggle in order for the audience to see his growth.

This episode I didn't know what to do with myself. Lion-O was IMPRESSIVE AS HELL! AND HE LOOKED GOOD DOING IT TOO! This is so foreign to me, I don't even know what to think about it. I'm terrified he's going to revert back to that whiny little punk who wants everything his way .

Overall I agree with everything here. Just a few points. Being a king is a funny thing, because part of how you become a king is to DEMAND respect. It's not a position you earn, it's a position you are given regardless of merit, and that puts you in a funny spot. Yes, you can't go too far or you become a tyrant, but you can't treat people like friends and equals all the time either. You are their KING, and sometimes you have to remind them whether they like it or not. This is why many modern types don't like kings, but it is what it is.

That said, I'm also terrified he's going to revert, because the trouble with this show is usually not that an individual episode or story is bad, it's that it's just so random it never builds on anything.

[Singe]

Kaynar, Atticus, and Slyde locked up together in a cell. First one to bend over loses.

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

Overall I agree with everything here. Just a few points. Being a king is a funny thing, because part of how you become a king is to DEMAND respect. It's not a position you earn, it's a position you are given regardless of merit, and that puts you in a funny spot. Yes, you can't go too far or you become a tyrant, but you can't treat people like friends and equals all the time either. You are their KING, and sometimes you have to remind them whether they like it or not. This is why many modern types don't like kings, but it is what it is.

That said, I'm also terrified he's going to revert, because the trouble with this show is usually not that an individual episode or story is bad, it's that it's just so random it never builds on anything.

Three adults in the group that worked hard to get where they are at, being order around by a slacker who just became their boss.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunchie

Some people may call me on my Lion-O love influencing my reactions to these episodes.
Like "Oh, you don't like Tygra, well if Cheetara got together with Lion-O at the end of episode 13 you wouldn't be complaining" Unfortunately, that's does ring with some truth. If she did, it would be a relationship based on the past episodes providing spaced out instances of their development. I am sorry, but the flashbacks were not enough justification.

However, if the same instances occurred only flipped (Lion-O for Tygra) the complete flip in judgement, priorities, and actions, would still seem rather un-becoming of her character. I would probably still be knocking her for choosing to surrender to "save" Lion-O versus keeping her and Tygra alive

As for the Tygra and Cheetara relationship, some people say "She was just being sisterly, or comforting. Lion-O shouldn't have read that much into it." I challenge them with this:

Take every instance of this love triangle and gender swap it. What if Cheetara, a man, was acting the way SHE did with a Girl Lion-O (the exact same, motion for motion, word for word) Not to make assumptions, but I think more people would come out in defense of Lion-O and condemning Man-tara. What do you think?

This is my opinion exactly. It's not the result, it's the writing.

And your gender double-standard is an interesting point. Had the roles been flipped, a man doing those things would have been immediately assumed to be romantic, where a girl can be 'sisterly.'

[Lunchie]

Last note, I swear, I am done for the night.

A lot of People say they want Lion-O to get together with Pumyra to smooth over this triangle debacle. I am sorry but........no. The writer's show they can build it but they can not deliver. Also....it's Pumyra. She had the least amount of screen time of any of the new Thundercats is the OS. Props to the creators if they want to do something different but seriously she's second string Thundercat material. To do that I feel would....just not feel right. Like Max Payne, the Mark Wahlberg movie. They took a B-list goon from the game's story and made him the primary antagonist of the movie to space the overall story between two films (the second which better not happen EVER).
I also wouldn't feel it would be true to the OS, throwing a romance that was never there or intended, or really even popularized with the OG OS fans (Don't look at me like that. Producers and creators stated they WOULD have had a Lion-O/Cheetara romance in the OS if time/higher up would have allowed it)

If she's done right, more power to Pumyra. But if a backup romance plot line is what they honestly have in store for her....I am not looking forward to it at all.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunchie

I remember reading early interviews with the creators regarding this show. The way they talked, they seemed they were trying to make a "young-adult" or a "more mature" cartoon show.

When doing so, I imagine that you would need to be consistent with your characters. Futurama, Family Guy, and other comedy cartoon shows can have characters acting one way an episode and a completely different way another episode because of the genre. If you're being serious however, than characters need to have a set personality and (pending alien mind control) act within their parameters barring outside stimulus.

First of all, I don't like blaming Cheetara for my hatred of everything from episode 13 and onward. I DO blame the writer's for using her as a spoon to sir up the drama that frankly was not necessary or welcome. Trust me, I would RATHER be blaming Tygra! Unfortunately though, Tygra has been the most consistent alongside Lion-O (save occasionally forgetting his previous life lessons) in that he's still a smug Jack-Ass with a "reported" soft side (do not give me the *he probably had it hard as a kid* reasoning, the show has yet to make me buy it) and he hasn't strayed too far from these parameters.

Cheetara was the mediator between Tygra and Lion-O, the voice of reason when they started butting heads. She was the body guard who took the entire group as her charge. She was the one telling Lion-O he could when everyone had/or still was telling him he can't. Now what is she? Surrendering herself to the generals to ensure ONLY Tygra's safety? Constantly worrying about Tygra, the capable warrior, instead of the welfare of Lion-O, her king, or welfare of the team as whole?

Hell if she had a moment in the show when she said "you know, I've devoted my life to the service of others without focusing on what I want for the majority of my young life. Is this really my entire life? My future? is this really what I want?" Then I would have bought it as development (questionable development but development none the less) and wouldn't be here on this forum complaining.

Also ( I really am sorry, I have just really had a lot on my mind), Lion-O willing to keep fighting when Tygra is captured, MAY have had a flavoring of malice due to the love triangle, but, given who they were up against, it was probably their only way out alive (save a Panthro intervention).

My blame is on the writing. Maybe if the show was guaranteed a 52 episode run, they would have spaced all this out with development. As such, now it's make it or break it. To their credit, I have never been following a show THIS closely (even if it is for the wrong reasons)

I did like this episode and can't wait for the next, because honestly, I can't predict what's going to happen next (for better or worse).

I'm open to this idea, but I need some proof. In what way has Cheetara acted like a mediator? The only time I remember her coming between an argument is when she told Tygra they couldn't risk using the tank in episode 12. What's funny is that Jelenic did an interview in which he stated he DID NOT want to make Cheetara the voice of reason in the group. Here the interview:Thunder Thursdays: Know Your ThunderCats! - TV Preview at IGN

She has never said Lion-O couldn't be a good leader, or that he was incapable of defeating Mumm-Ra. He had a bad idea, and so she told him so. When has she ever encouraged one of his bad ideas? In episode 14 when Lion-O confronted her about her actions, she told him she still sees the potential in him to be great. She has not stopped believing in him.

She wasn't only worried about Tygra. She showed up to the match because Lion-O was there. We can't really say she sacrificed Lion-O. He has the sword (..he dropped it..), Tygra was being held at knife point with his body wrapped in a whip. I'm not saying her logic wasn't flawed. If it was meant to be a flaw, then great. Lets work on fixing it through story line and development . Where is she CONSTANTLY worrying over Tygra? Even so, it's her boyfriend. Whose expecting her to act exactly the way she did before 13? Once again who she was before really had no ideas or opinion about anything other than Lion-O.

I'm not saying she does or doesn't think about herself. I'm just stating what we've seen, and since the premier all of Cheetara's dialog has been about supporting Lion-O. She needs more than just that if we are expected to become attached to her. Her making a choice or having an opinion on something other than Lion-O, is a step in the right direction as far as growth.

I agree, consistency is important. But so is growth and development. Actively disliking a character is better than having no opinion on them at all. Also, this show has a different format than Family Guy. Those characters will never change or grow into something different from who they were 30 episodes ago. They don't develop. It doesn't matter if you watch episode 20 before you watch episode 7, because Meg will still be a love starved middle child, and Peter will still be an idiot with the thought process of an 8 year old. They are not aiming for an end, because there is no "end".As for Thundercats, we are expecting these characters to have changed and grown between now and episode 52.

It's not a question of maybe the love triangle got to Lion'O's head. It did. The Lion-O we got during season one would NEVER sacrifice his own brother. He would have found another way. It was pure malice.

Do you watch Young Justice? Superboy started off really hostile and hot headed. A hand full of episodes later and he's able to think with his head more. It's not just punch punch punch! " There's a time to go in strong, and a time to go in smart." Megan started off really unsure of herself and insecure. She was also dumbstruck by Superboy. Episode 3 Megan would never tell Superboy to lay off, but episode 12 Megan sure did!

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

Three adults in the group that worked hard to get where they are at, being order around by a slacker who just became their boss.

You are entirely right, and that is why in the modern world we tend to think monarchy's are a silly system. But that is neither here nor there, this is a story about a monarch, those that follow him did not pick him, but they say they are loyal, therefore they have a duty to follow him respectfully.

That doesn't mean do everything he says; wise advisers also need to point out to a king when he's wrong, but not rudely. He's still the king.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunchie

Last note, I swear, I am done for the night.

A lot of People say they want Lion-O to get together with Pumyra to smooth over this triangle debacle. I am sorry but........no. The writer's show they can build it but they can not deliver. Also....it's Pumyra. She had the least amount of screen time of any of the new Thundercats is the OS. Props to the creators if they want to do something different but seriously she's second string Thundercat material. To do that I feel would....just not feel right. Like Max Payne, the Mark Wahlberg movie. They took a B-list goon from the game's story and made him the primary antagonist of the movie to space the overall story between two films (the second which better not happen EVER).
I also wouldn't feel it would be true to the OS, throwing a romance that was never there or intended, or really even popularized with the OG OS fans (Don't look at me like that. Producers and creators stated they WOULD have had a Lion-O/Cheetara romance in the OS if time/higher up would have allowed it)

If she's done right, more power to Pumyra. But if a backup romance plot line is what they honestly have in store for her....I am not looking forward to it at all.

Applause! Pumyra has the most potential out of all of them. They all have the potential to out shine their OS counterparts, but you can't piss people off with Pumyra. She wasn't focused on, and so the possibilities are endless.

Reboots do not, and should not be copies of the original. Do you want to watch the exact same story with the exact same characters, except now you have an updated look? That's...limiting.

Is Star Trek 2009 the same as Star Trek:OS ? Are the characters the exact same people? Do they have the same relationships? As long as the spirit of the two remain in sync, the little stuff shouldn't have to be exactly the same. Jelenic should strive to make his own mark, not copy and paste.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunchie

Last note, I swear, I am done for the night.

A lot of People say they want Lion-O to get together with Pumyra to smooth over this triangle debacle. I am sorry but........no. The writer's show they can build it but they can not deliver. Also....it's Pumyra. She had the least amount of screen time of any of the new Thundercats is the OS. Props to the creators if they want to do something different but seriously she's second string Thundercat material. To do that I feel would....just not feel right. Like Max Payne, the Mark Wahlberg movie. They took a B-list goon from the game's story and made him the primary antagonist of the movie to space the overall story between two films (the second which better not happen EVER).
I also wouldn't feel it would be true to the OS, throwing a romance that was never there or intended, or really even popularized with the OG OS fans (Don't look at me like that. Producers and creators stated they WOULD have had a Lion-O/Cheetara romance in the OS if time/higher up would have allowed it)

If she's done right, more power to Pumyra. But if a backup romance plot line is what they honestly have in store for her....I am not looking forward to it at all.

This I disagree with completely. I do NOT want a rehash of the original material, or a spiritual remake. Most of the stuff I like in this is the stuff where they took serious liberties with their interpretation (spirit stones, armor, panthro arms though I don't like the stretchiness, etc.) I would love to see Pumyra elevated to starring status and given a major role. And a romance would be a fine way to do that. I hope she would be more than JUST a love interest, but either way would be find. I really want them to bring in the three new ones and give them serious contributing roles, unlike what they had in a lot of the first show.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

Overall I agree with everything here. Just a few points. Being a king is a funny thing, because part of how you become a king is to DEMAND respect. It's not a position you earn, it's a position you are given regardless of merit, and that puts you in a funny spot. Yes, you can't go too far or you become a tyrant, but you can't treat people like friends and equals all the time either. You are their KING, and sometimes you have to remind them whether they like it or not. This is why many modern types don't like kings, but it is what it is.

That said, I'm also terrified he's going to revert, because the trouble with this show is usually not that an individual episode or story is bad, it's that it's just so random it never builds on anything.

I agree, but no one, audience included wants to see the group follow Lion-O just because he is king. It also frustrates me when it comes to the rest of them. Sure he had a dumb idea, but hell, you all followed him! At least he can say he got you all to follow his dumb idea. It just not a good look.
I'm no political buff, but isnt that the point of checks and balances? Also did'nt Kings and the churches have some sort of check and balance as well( not a history buff either) ?

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

She has never said Lion-O couldn't be a good leader, or that he was incapable of defeating Mumm-Ra. He had a bad idea, and so she told him so. When has she ever encouraged one of his bad ideas? In episode 14 when Lion-O confronted her about her actions, she told him she still sees the potential in him to be great. She has not stopped believing in him.

I agree, consistency is important. But so is growth and development. Actively disliking a character is better than having no opinion on them at all. It's not a question of maybe the love triangle got to Lion'O's head. It did. The Lion-O we got during season one would NEVER sacrifice his own brother. He would have found another way. It was pure malice.

A character's behavior isn't just about isn't just about their literal words, it's also about the feeling. The interactions between Cheetara and Lion-o have gone from pleasant and supportive to unpleasant and antagonistic. This is Cheetara AND Lion-o's fault, but it's what people are talking about when they say the triangle has made them unlikable.

Secondly, I totally disagree that disliking a character is better than no opinion. Not if it's a HERO. You dislike villains. Disliking the heroes is a good way to get people to stop watching a show. You NEVER want your viewers to actively dislike a hero if you can help it. Be mad at them? Disagree with a decision? whatever. But liking them fundamentally is key to getting your viewers through those times when they ARE mad at the hero. If you don't like them you're not going to care about the show that long.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

Applause! Pumyra has the most potential out of all of them. They all have the potential to out shine their OS counterparts, but you can't piss people off with Pumyra. She wasn't focused on, and so the possibilities are endless.

Reboots do not, and should not be copies of the original. Do you want to watch the exact same story with the exact same characters, except now you have an updated look? That's...limiting.

Is Star Trek 2009 the same as Star Trek:OS ? Are the characters the exact same people? Do they have the same relationships? As long as the spirit of the two remain in sync, the little stuff shouldn't have to be exactly the same. Jelenic should strive to make his own mark, not copy and paste.

I think you might be missing his point. He seems to be arguing that Pumyra shouldn't be TOO focused on because she wasn't that important in the original show (his max payne reference). You seem to be saying that you want them to focus on her because she's got a lot of room for interpretation. Yet you say applause at the beginning. I'm confused.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

This is my opinion exactly. It's not the result, it's the writing.

And your gender double-standard is an interesting point. Had the roles been flipped, a man doing those things would have been immediately assumed to be romantic, where a girl can be 'sisterly.'

I saw the potential for her actions to be romantic. Otherwise Lion-O wouldn't have thought she was interested, and this story line wouldn't have happened. But she never did anything that was absolutely romantic. Cheek kissing and hand touching are not automatically deemed romantic. People do these things casually. Now if she would have stuck her tongue down his throat, ....

Heck, if a man is constantly did all those things, and I liked him, I would probably be in a similar situation as Lion-O. I just wouldn't act like a butt when he told me he wasn't into me that way.

Just to play with the gender stereotypes, women don't typically treat men there interested in, like Cheetara does Lion-O. Most women want to see that their potential mate can hold his own. This is why her constant encouragement and defense came off sisterly. I always thought women wanted Alpha males, not dependent ones.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

I agree, but no one, audience included wants to see the group follow Lion-O just because he is king. It also frustrates me when it comes to the rest of them. Sure he had a dumb idea, but hell, you all followed him! At least he can say he got you all to follow his dumb idea. It just not a good look.
I'm no political buff, but isnt that the point of checks and balances? Also did'nt Kings and the churches have some sort of check and balance as well( not a history buff either) ?

I agree with you here, but this is sort of the fault of the writers again. They've been continuously bringing up his role as king and then having people disrespect him. That's counter-intuitive. Either mention he's king and show them being good subjects, or just leave it be mostly. They know what a king is, to show them constantly disrespecting a king they say they're loyal to makes them look just as bad as a king who can't earn his position.

That is EXACTLY the point of checks and balances. That is why modern nations invented those and no longer have absolute monarchs. To try and avoid having dopes as our leaders(the success is questionable). As for kings and the church; if by checks and balances you mean they would periodically go to war and attempt to murder each other, then yeah sure they had checks and balances.

[Lunchie]

Chique, you make a valid point. I guess to me she seemed like the one who wanted to smooth things over between everyone and not rock the boat. I guess I just saw her as a mediator of sorts. That's not to say she never disagreed or never had her own opinion.

You are true in saying characters need depth. However, hers came across as "Where did that come from?" A fault in not having a Cheetara centered episode or a personal history flashback that wasn't used for the triangle as of yet. Or really a whole lot of dialogue for that matter now that I think about it. Once again, not her fault, the writing.

I would be interested in hearing where you think her character growth is heading for if this the mid-point of the show.

"The Lion-O we got during season one would NEVER sacrifice his own brother."

True but, when had a situation, where he had to choose between certain death (which it was) and the well being of his comrade (without any sort of alternate option available) came up before in season one? Thinking on that now, I think it would be interesting for Lion-O to have to deal with the consequences of such a choice in a future episode (IE, choosing to save himself and the others over someone's life. Hopefully it won't be his brother)

Finally, no I do not watch Young Justice, but I know of it. I read some comics and the weird DC continuity perturbs me (IE Dick Grayson, Wally West, and Conner Kent being some of the primary members when the comic Young Justice was started by Superboy, Tim Drake, and Impulse)

(Also Zatanna is bout the same age as robin when in the comics she's actually closer to Batman's age?)

The animation and writing I think are well done but....I think I am too used to the DC cartoon continuity of previous shows like Batman/Superman adventures and JLU. Also I can't find myself liking any of the characters and trust me when I say Dick Grayson is MY BOY! When you can't get me to root for Dick Grayson like a high school cheerleader, you must be doing something wrong but so help me I do not know what that is.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

A character's behavior isn't just about isn't just about their literal words, it's also about the feeling. The interactions between Cheetara and Lion-o have gone from pleasant and supportive to unpleasant and antagonistic. This is Cheetara AND Lion-o's fault, but it's what people are talking about when they say the triangle has made them unlikable.

Secondly, I totally disagree that disliking a character is better than no opinion. Not if it's a HERO. You dislike villains. Disliking the heroes is a good way to get people to stop watching a show. You NEVER want your viewers to actively dislike a hero if you can help it. Be mad at them? Disagree with a decision? whatever. But liking them fundamentally is key to getting your viewers through those times when they ARE mad at the hero. If you don't like them you're not going to care about the show that long.



I think you might be missing his point. He seems to be arguing that Pumyra shouldn't be TOO focused on because she wasn't that important in the original show (his max payne reference). You seem to be saying that you want them to focus on her because she's got a lot of room for interpretation. Yet you say applause at the beginning. I'm confused.

You should be confused. I skimmed the comment, and he wouldn't have been the first or 2nd to talk about the great potential Pumyra has.

ALL MY FAULT.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

I saw the potential for her actions to be romantic. Otherwise Lion-O wouldn't have thought she was interested, and this story line wouldn't have happened. But she never did anything that was absolutely romantic. Cheek kissing and hand touching are not automatically deemed romantic. People do these things casually. Now if she would have stuck her tongue down his throat, ....

Heck, if a man is constantly did all those things, and I liked him, I would probably be in a similar situation as Lion-O. I just wouldn't act like a butt when he told me he wasn't into me that way.

Just to play with the gender stereotypes, women don't typically treat men there interested in, like Cheetara does Lion-O. Most women want to see that their potential mate can hold his own. This is why her constant encouragement and defense came off sisterly. I always thought women wanted Alpha males, not dependent ones.

Maybe it's just where I grew up, but cheek kissing was NOT NORMAL there. If a single female I knew had done that outside of a few VERY SPECIFIC instances, i would have taken it as romantic. Hand-holding you are totally right, but we also have to account for this being a kid's show. They're not going to depict romance by having them tearing each other's clothes off like a prime-time drama. Hand-holding and things of that sort are going to be how they depict it. And some basic kissing.

your second point I basically agree, and wish Lion-o would get over it.

Your third point is getting kind of a stereotype-y. You may be right, but I don't know many single females that would treat a single male near their age in 'sisterly' fashion either. Because such things would likely cause misunderstandings and quite possibly be taken romantically.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

I agree with you here, but this is sort of the fault of the writers again. They've been continuously bringing up his role as king and then having people disrespect him. That's counter-intuitive. Either mention he's king and show them being good subjects, or just leave it be mostly. They know what a king is, to show them constantly disrespecting a king they say they're loyal to makes them look just as bad as a king who can't earn his position.

That is EXACTLY the point of checks and balances. That is why modern nations invented those and no longer have absolute monarchs. To try and avoid having dopes as our leaders(the success is questionable). As for kings and the church; if by checks and balances you mean they would periodically go to war and attempt to murder each other, then yeah sure they had checks and balances.

I hate history. Sure stuff it into my brain during K-12, but why make me take it in college. I has nothing to do with my major, I could be sleeping

I think it was Henry. Didn't the church prevent him from doing stuff? No, ok I'm stupid. Sorry.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

You should be confused. I skimmed the comment, and he wouldn't have been the first or 2nd to talk about the great potential Pumyra has.

ALL MY FAULT.

Fair enough. I too am hoping for a lot from Pumyra. I'm REALLY hoping she's not a one and done character like they used to do in the 90's X-men cartoon. I want her to join permanently. The team needs another adult female thundercat, although they did a good job of making Kit more than just a fixture these last two episodes.

As for romance with her, I personally would like it because I'm a bit of a sucker for those things and I would like the hero to get a romance, but I want it well done and I hope Pumyra has a cool personality and is not just a function of Lion-o.

They could still keep her the doctor though. Having a cool, capable doctor would be badass.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

I hate history. Sure stuff it into my brain during K-12, but why make me take it in college. I has nothing to do with my major, I could be sleeping

I think it was Henry. Didn't the church prevent him from doing stuff? No, ok I'm stupid. Sorry.

The church stopped him from getting a divorce. But that wasn't so much a question of authority as funny church rules and he responded by simply making his own church and killing half of his subsequent wives. Not the route I think we want Lion-o to go.