Thundercats Ep 13 - Between Brothers Discussion

[Superstar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenshon

If his arrogance was the case then Tygra should not have gotten her either they both r arrogant its just Lion-o was basing his comment off the signals he was getting from Cheetara and what Tygra wasn't, but he got played,but I don't see this outcome as a betrayal, him kissing and having a relationship with Cheetara dosen't warrant the title of betrayal, it has to be something else because the premonition was supposed to be betrayal stemming from Tygra himself. Hopefully ep14 will reveal what Tygra betrayal really is cause if this is it, it doesn't feel right. I believe the elephant phrased it as "By bell toll tomorrow you will expierience a betrayal like no other and it will come from your brother." If i am correct the key word here is expierience and not feel.I don't think Lion-o feelings will be the issue that phrase points more to something happening.I just hope they don't make Lion-o look even more weaker than he does by making him lash out,or mopeing around and wounded cause this behavior wouldn't suite his personality and the character they have built so far he just doesn't seem like that type of person to me from what i have seen. Let him be the bigger man and keep his self respect and dignity atleast to show that he is truly different than Tygra.But the dynamics of his relationship with Cheetara will deffinately change and her reactions to it might be interesting to see, a lot of people are calling that kiss a thank -u kiss it looked like more than that too me there was sum serious passion going on there that made the cheek kissing with Lion-o look encouraging and if it wasn't for all the other stuff and the almost kissing mouth to mouth in that 1 ep, I probably would see her intentions as encouragement too.Its like the writers tried to resolve all that build up of a Lion-o/Cheetara pairing with this too down play what we have already seen and too a majority it failed cause we reconize the flaws with it,but I still enjoyed it and will be line when dvds drop to add to my collection.

What I meant by his arrogance was the fact the episode put more of a sympathetic tone toward Tygra than Lion O. To me it was pretty obvious that he was about to lose in the Cheetara contest. But doesn't mean I wanted to see it. I mean they have played with relationship since episode one. I usually don't care about this aspect of the show that much. But even I think Lion O has every right to be pissed. But hopefully some good will come out of it. I am more inclined to see a more battle hardened Lion O thanks to this. I am more dissappointed at his loss to Tygra than the love Triangle. Hope he is so pissed off he goes on a rampage and start challenging their enemies likes he is crazy.

[stormbringer]

I get the feeling we're going to see a very different lion-o after this. the next episodes are supposed to be about lion-o's trials. hopefully we'll see lion-o get over cheetara become, a awesome leader and finally show the naysayers (such as tygra ) that he is fit to be king.

[kenshon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

I was wondering if someone could explain, in detail why Cheetara loves Tygra? Because i've listened to it and it doesn't make sense to me.

Basically its like she saying she fell in love with the boy(Tygra) who gave her that flower when she was trying to become a cleric, then she starts explaining the properties of said flower which replenished her energy reserves and gave her strenght to endure untill we see Jaga take her in to be a cleric in that flashback episode and that was the choice she made long ago.So basically unbeknowest to Tygra and everyone else she had chozen to be with him at that time so from Ep1 to Ep13 she was really in love with Tygra the whole time.She made a choice to be in love with a person because he gave her a flower that helped her become a cleric so that one act changed the circumstances of her life at that time(she was a orphan and had nowhere else to go).

[hollowdheart]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenshon

Basically its like she saying she fell in love with the boy(Tygra) who gave her that flower when she trying to become a cleric, then she starts explaining the properties of said flower which replenished her energy reserves and gave her strenght to endure untill we see Jaga take her in to be a cleric in that episode and that was the choice she made long ago.So basically unbeknowest to Tygra and everyone else she had chozen to be with him at that time so from Ep1 to Ep13 she was really in love with Tygra the whole time.

That doesn't sound much better than i thought it would.

[kenshon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superstar

What I meant by his arrogance was the fact the episode put more of a sympathetic tone toward Tygra than Lion O. To me it was pretty obvious that he was about to lose in the Cheetara contest. But doesn't mean I wanted to see it. I mean they have played with relationship since episode one. I usually don't care about this aspect of the show that much. But even I think Lion O has every right to be pissed. But hopefully some good will come out of it. I am more inclined to see a more battle hardened Lion O thanks to this. I am more dissappointed at his loss to Tygra than the love Triangle. Hope he is so pissed off he goes on a rampage and start challenging their enemies likes he is crazy.

I agree, they played lion-o weak with his duel with Tygra I mean Tygra utterly destroyed him with a fake sword of omen and Lion-o clearly states a fake could never beat the real thing and we see how that turned out

[stormbringer]

hopefully the next arc will actually have more victories for lion-o . he was pretty much the hard luck hero for the past 13 episodes.

[Superstar]

I really don't care about the upgrade toward the sword of Omens. I want to see Lion O become powerful without it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenshon

I agree, they played lion-o weak with his duel with Tygra I mean Tygra utterly destroyed him with a fake sword of omen and Lion-o clearly states a fake could never beat the real thing and we see how that turned out

Exactly the skills he showed in that one episode just suddenly dissapeared during that fight.

[kenshon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

That doesn't sound much better than i thought it would.

I think it was meant to be romantic but it fails because we never see any romance build- up between them all season they act like they didn't know eachother and if you pay attention to the pilot Lion-o already new Cheetara he commented on her always following him around so they already had something(don't know what to call it)Later on we get flashbacks of her connection with Tygra which still warrants no romance and plus his reactions in the pilot makes no sense if he knew her in the flashback.

[kenshon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superstar

I really don't care about the upgrade toward the sword of Omens. I want to see Lion O become powerful without it.


Exactly the skills he showed in that one episode just suddenly dissapeared during that fight.

I know right! In that episode with the drifter we see Lion-o do something like a flash-step or shunpo all of a sudden when he fight Tygra its like a grown man sword fighting with a scared little kid its unreal what happened everything he has learned up till this point?

[stormbringer]

exactly. we never saw any real build up ti a tygra cheetara romance , in fact they acted like they didn't even know each other prior to the first episode.

[hollowdheart]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenshon

I think it was meant to be romantic but it fails because we never see any romance build- up between them all season they act like they didn't know eachother and if you pay attention to the pilot Lion-o already new Cheetara he commented on her always following him around so they already had a something(don't know what to call it)Later on we get flashbacks of her connection with Tygra which still warrants no romance and plus his reactions in the pilot makes no since if he knew her in the flashback.

That's the only problem i had with this episode. I thought it would be Lion-o/Cheetara. I wouldn't have minded Tygra/Cheetara if they had showed something more than the flashbacks, more interaction and she hadn't (intentionally or not) led Lion-o on and given a better reason for loving Tygra than his kindness when he was, like 12, and that flower.

[Big Snarf]

I don't think lion-o that bad so far i mean he practically went into the astral plane found the stone and beat mum-ra by himself "all the tygra B.S aside" The bad things that happen to him seem to stand out more than the good he has done. It seems the more everyone tries to explain the cheetara tygra thing the more it doesn't make sense. If she chose to be with tygra since then why bother to be a cleric.

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenshon

I know right! In that episode with the drifter we see Lion-o do something like a flash-step or shunpo all of a sudden when he fight Tygra its like a grown man sword fighting with a scared little kid its unreal what happened everything he has learned up till this point?

Idon't he wanted to reall y fight tygra or that red laser would of done tygra in for sure and when mum-ra shows up he uses it on him. The writers must have forgot that lion-o is supposed to be better than tygra by now i hope the next time because i think there will be a next lion-o is gonna own him big time

[kenshon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

I don't think lion-o that bad so far i mean he practically went into the astral plane found the stone and beat mum-ra by himself "all the tygra B.S aside" The bad things that happen to him seem to stand out more than the good he has done. It seems the more everyone tries to explain the cheetara tygra thing the more it doesn't make sense. If she chose to be with tygra since then why bother to be a cleric.

Her dream was to be a cleric,she saying that 1 act made it possible.She was their to be a cleric and because Tygra helped with that its like she saying she promised herself to him on that day.

[hollowdheart]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenshon

Her dream was to be a cleric,she saying that 1 act made it possible.She was their to be a cleric and because Tygra helped with that its like she saying she promised herself to him on that day.

That's like saying you'll marry some guy that saves you from a mugging. That's stupid. And on another board people are speculating that Lion-o and his mom were mean to Tygra and that's why he's an ass.

[stormbringer]

thus far the show hasn't done the best job of explaining why many of the characters feel /behave the way they do and starting to become a bigger and bigger problem . hopefully this'll get better with the next batch of episodes.

[hollowdheart]

They certainly aren't doing that for Cheetara. Her actions look shady now.

[stormbringer]

can't argue with you there hallowdheart.

[kenshon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

That's like saying you'll marry some guy that saves you from a mugging. That's stupid. And on another board people are speculating that Lion-o and his mom were mean to Tygra and that's why he's an ass.

Tygra(I AM NOT A TYGRA HATER!) fans will rationalize and excuse anything to make him look like he has a good reason for everything he does.A 12 yr old Tygra tried to kill his brother because he couldn't be king," that is sum serious sh*t! "then he turns around as an adult and does it again because of a girl. Sum may have forgotten but Tygra told Lion-o the if he find that stone that he was keeping it for himself that was why he wanted to go with Lion-o he wasn't their to help him in no way.

[hollowdheart]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenshon

Tygra(I AM NOT A TYGRA HATER!) fans will rationalize and excuse anything to make him look like he has a good reason for everything he does.A 12 yr old Tygra tried to kill his brother because he couldn't be king," that is sum serious sh*t! "then he turns around as an adult and does it again because of a girl. Sum may have forgotten but Tygra told Lion-o the if he find that stone that he was keeping it for himself that was why he wanted to go with Lion-o he wasn't their to help him in no way.

I agree. And they didn't even notice that Lion-o had to talk him out of leaving him again. Lion-o had to mention Claudus for Tygra to even stop walking away.

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

That's like saying you'll marry some guy that saves you from a mugging. That's stupid. And on another board people are speculating that Lion-o and his mom were mean to Tygra and that's why he's an ass.

To me its like saying she will marry him for helping her become a nun, can nuns get married? Tygra is an ass because he idolized grune

[kenshon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

That's like saying you'll marry some guy that saves you from a mugging. That's stupid. And on another board people are speculating that Lion-o and his mom were mean to Tygra and that's why he's an ass.

I understand being indepted to someone but this logic is a bit extreme when it seems her and Tygra haven't talked or been in contact with each other in years (going by the eps we have seen)She/Tygra really don't know each other but Lion-o already knew her personally(it seemed) he was just suprised when she was revealed to be a cleric.

[stormbringer]

the problem is that until 2 episodes ago, we had pretty much 0 interaction between tygra and cheetara. it was lion-o and cheetara that had all the scenes, kisses on the cheek and hands touching, cheetara treated tygra like she didn't even know him. now after nearly 11 episodes of that , we get one flashback if him leaving her a flower as kids abstract she's in love with him?

[hollowdheart]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

the problem is that until 2 episodes ago, we had pretty much 0 interaction between tygra and cheetara. it was lion-o and cheetara that had all the scenes, kisses on the cheek and hands touching, cheetara treated tygra like she didn't even know him. now after nearly 11 episodes of that , we get one flashback if him leaving her a flower as kids abstract she's in love with him?

That's what threw me off. I had expected Lion-o to confess to Cheetara and for them to be a couple then for Tygra to "Betray" him. But this just didn't make sense and i don't even think the kids that watch this will understand it. Or want to watch it anymore.

[kenshon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

I agree. And they didn't even notice that Lion-o had to talk him out of leaving him again. Lion-o had to mention Claudus for Tygra to even stop walking away.

Thats when they try redeem him giving us that scene when he goes crying to Claudus to help Lion-o but remember Lion-o himself didn't remember what really happened and Tygra only told Claudus that Lion-o fell in the pit a bet you 2 cent Tygra didn't tell Claudus that he broke that branch and sent Lion-o to plummet to his fate, if he did tell he knew Claudus would disown him.He was most likely hoping Lion-o would be dead by the time anyone found him and he could then be king but it backfired and he got out of it because Lion-o couldn't remember what really happened.He figured if he couldn't kill him, I'll just bully him from now on!

[Superstar]

All I know is cartoonetwork trolled so hard on that last episode. They pratically destroyed most the image of Lion O as a leader. The only way to recover the protagonist character after scenarios like this is to make said character truly badass. As in having him do stuff a hero normally won't do. That or making him into a ruthless warrior for awhile. I don't see that happening with Lion O.

[theking]

I seriously hope this weeks episode is better, I wanna see Lion-O reach his full potential and kick everyone's butts like in the classic one. Just irritates me on how much they've made his character look like a wimp through out some of the episodes. For example, in the fight scene how could he get beaten by Tygra so easily, he should be more like OMG your trying to kill me so I don't care if your my brother I'm gonna pawn your a**. The creators should focus more on character development without rushing too much, I don't want this series to end up as a bad remake lol.

[Pand3mix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yasraina

I just remembered something friend the sword didn't work on episode 11 against the bird cause it wasn't evil fine by that. If you believe that it worked against Tygra cause in that moment he was evil then you should consider Lion-o evil in the first episode when Claudus to saw him what was capable the sword of in proper hands he attacked Lion-o with it (think of it).

Ooo, don't correct my flawed logic.> Haha, your right, I actually missed part of the first episode cause I was watching it on you tube. So, I will say, so far, the writers of thundercats have made some interesting but ....I don't know how to put it, flawed logic in a few episodes like the Tygra and cheetara thing that people are debating about. They might've added that info later after the episode.

But since it is already placed and out there. I think part of it is that lion-o still has a lot to learn and the sword is leading him. Hi father was a respected leader, who's intent was teaching him the way of the sword. Maybe the sword reconized that he didn't actually want to hurt is son.

[Pand3mix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenshon

Thats when they try redeem him giving us that scene when he goes crying to Claudus to help Lion-o but remember Lion-o himself didn't remember what really happened and Tygra only told Claudus that Lion-o fell in the pit a bet you 2 cent Tygra didn't tell Claudus that he broke that branch and sent Lion-o to plummet to his fate, if he did tell he knew Claudus would disown him.He was most likely hoping Lion-o would be dead by the time anyone found him and he could then be king but it backfired and he got out of it because Lion-o couldn't remember what really happened.He figured if he couldn't kill him, I'll just bully him from now on!

I don't think that is true, he said it was his fault when he got help. Also, I've played plenty of pranks to my sister that didn't ...end well. But I would never actually mean for her to get hurt even when i was pissed. That is a cruel thing to sag, that he would hope is brother would die.

[vantheman77]

Like I said, the writer who wrote this and Inside The Astral Plane probably didn't watch the series.

I agree that Lion-O didn't ask Tygra or anyone to go with him rather Tygra went with Lion-O on his own accord. Yes, Tygra was planning to keep the stone for himself yet Lion-O put a stop to that idea.

Like I said, whatever Lion-O did in getting the stone was something he could have done on his own. All that stuff with Tygra was really unnecessary, except revealing what happened between them during their cub years.

I have a feeling that Lion-O undergoing trials in the next season will probably be the result of what happened at the end of this season finale. If he's going to have a second-in-command, it's likely going to be Panthro.

[kenshon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pand3mix

I don't think that is true, he said it was his fault when he got help. Also, I've played plenty of pranks to my sister that didn't ...end well. But I would never actually mean for her to get hurt even when i was pissed. That is a cruel thing to sag, that he would hope is brother would die.

Yeah he did say that the problem is we don't know how sincere he was about it but judging from his character and what we have seen of his behavior how sincere do think he really was? After a incedent like that and for all the remorse he showed he did not embrace Lion-o he continued to treat him like Sh*t for years thats why I said what I said don't you think that if he truly regretted what he did he would be more accepting of Lion-o? check out the movie The Good Son sometime. that movie may give you a little more insight of what goes through a childs mind when they do these types of things.Can you really call what he did a prank listen to what he says to Lion-o before he breaks that branch it reveals his state mind before he did it he basically announced what his intensions were so that makes it premeditated on his part.Im sorry he intended to kill Lion-o their is no other way to look at it.You say what I said is cruel what about what Tygra did to his brother 2x I refuse to give him any sympathy for that and no one should he doesn't deserve it, but I'm ok with forgiving him.

[Pand3mix]

You must not have any sibblings. I'm not saying to sympathize with the character. But he did show remorse and fear. He ran.to save his brother, he didn't skip or walk back to the kingdom. People do stupid things, or cats or whatever. And this is a troubled character, but we haven't been shown much insight on his character yet to really know if he is born twisted or the pressure he has gone through made him who he is. Pressure makes anyone do stupid things when the Damn breaks. I'm sure the writers will give more insight on his character. If he was really this aweful character he wouldn't have done what he has done for cheetara. He might've not thought about the weight of death and maybe only thought as far as making his brother vanish, not thinking what that would actually mean. Always being compared to your sibbling is really hard to go through.

The original Tygra was based off of integrity. I don't think the writers are going to trash this character atleast I hope.not. he was not a rational adult at that time, he was a child. I doubt he weighed the situation. I'm not saying what he did was right, nor am I defending the action if that was the intention. But so far we haven't heard any other time he has tried to get rid of his brother. And the show has shown some good moments between them as well.

Until I see more of the show and see more of the past they shared, I think he has been nothing but troubled and slightly impulsive. But I know I.wouldn't be happy taking orders from someone to do something when I believed it.needed to be done another way.

And I have done plenty of research on why people do the things they do what they are thinking. And forgiving means understanding and it doesn't sound like your trying to understand his character at all.

[Yasraina]

Kenshon about the betrayl the whole thing is that the elephants said to Lion-o you will face a betrayl from your brother like you have never faced before in episode 12. But to Cheetara in episode 13 they said that he will feel betrayed before the evening bell. So perhaps the truth is that Tygra actually didn't really betrayed him but Lion-o feld betrayed after seeing Cheetara kissing Tygra. Think about that version of the story

[Darkliger]

My thoughts
When I first saw that new Panthro figure I thought it was either unfinished or he was wearing gauntlets of some kind. I wold have never thought those were his new arms. This show is taking some risks. showing main character dismemberment.

Grune is gone....for now. He could haunt the Cats like he did in the original series.

AS for the Lion-O/Tygra/Cheetara thing.
My reaction to the resolution was "uh wait..what?"

Will Lion-O reveal he saw them or keep it a secret? Either way I can see him being a lot colder and gruff to both of them. Now we need Pumyra or Mandora to show up.

[stormbringer]

I think Lion-o won't tell them what he saw at first, but tygra cheetara will probably notice that he is starting to be MUCH colder to them, and after an episodes of two they'll fund out what's going on and try to smooth things over.whether they can or not remains to be seen.

[The Superman J]

I think you guys are really trying to just grasp at straws on this whole Lion-O vs Tygra thing. This picture of Tygra being some murderous villan in hiding is pretty much ridiculous. The two of them are brothers, adopted brothers at that, and it is EXACTLY how a good majority of siblings act. You all have done a grand job of pointing out all the horrible things that have been done, but not a single one has thought back to look at the good.

In the premiere, Tygra jumps in to assist Lion-O when he stands up for the lizard slave and is about to be beaten back and over whelmed by a very large mob. He even says to the mob, "Be sure you want to do this, because I've got his back" in reference to Lion-O. Tygra didn't even agree with Lion-O's view of the slave, but he still doesn't even hesitate to defend his brother.

In Episode 4 or 5 I believe it is, with the mini plant people, Tygra joins his brother (along with Cheetara, Kit and Kat) in what they believe is going to be their final stand to the bitter end against the lizard army before Panthro shows up. They stand back to back together and acknowledge the honor its been, knowing without a doubt this is where they die, TOGETHER.

This is all just sibling rivalary. If Tygra hated or wanted to be rid of his brother, Lion-O would be long gone by now or Tygra would have taken off and left the others to their fate. Tygra may have his character flaws, but I think its been proven without a doubt that when the end comes we know where he stands.

About the Cheetara thing - we saw when the group was resting in the desert trying to find shade Cheetara and Tygra both cuddled up resting on each other. We have also seen in many background shots the two of them standing together closer than the rest of the cast. So thats something there.

[Yasraina]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Superman J

I think you guys are really trying to just grasp at straws on this whole Lion-O vs Tygra thing. This picture of Tygra being some murderous villan in hiding is pretty much ridiculous. The two of them are brothers, adopted brothers at that, and it is EXACTLY how a good majority of siblings act. You all have done a grand job of pointing out all the horrible things that have been done, but not a single one has thought back to look at the good.

In the premiere, Tygra jumps in to assist Lion-O when he stands up for the lizard slave and is about to be beaten back and over whelmed by a very large mob. He even says to the mob, "Be sure you want to do this, because I've got his back" in reference to Lion-O. Tygra didn't even agree with Lion-O's view of the slave, but he still doesn't even hesitate to defend his brother.

In Episode 4 or 5 I believe it is, with the mini plant people, Tygra joins his brother (along with Cheetara, Kit and Kat) in what they believe is going to be their final stand to the bitter end against the lizard army before Panthro shows up. They stand back to back together and acknowledge the honor its been, knowing without a doubt this is where they die, TOGETHER.

This is all just sibling rivalary. If Tygra hated or wanted to be rid of his brother, Lion-O would be long gone by now or Tygra would have taken off and left the others to their fate. Tygra may have his character flaws, but I think its been proven without a doubt that when the end comes we know where he stands.

About the Cheetara thing - we saw when the group was resting in the desert trying to find shade Cheetara and Tygra both cuddled up resting on each other. We have also seen in many background shots the two of them standing together closer than the rest of the cast. So thats something there.

Well said finally someone who sees the whole thing so nicely i salute you man

[stormbringer]

I don't believe for a second that Tygra hates Lion-o, I said on another site that I believe that Tygra was the son of a friend and adopted by Claudus and his wife who were having trouble conceiving. tygra likely spent the first couple of years being told he was destined to be king but then lion-o was born, and tygra likely felt he would always be second best . I believe this is why tygra us so angry , its not lion-o he hates its the situation he'a been dealing with since be was a cub.

[kenshon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pand3mix

You must not have any sibblings. I'm not saying to sympathize with the character. But he did show remorse and fear. He ran.to save his brother, he didn't skip or walk back to the kingdom. People do stupid things, or cats or whatever. And this is a troubled character, but we haven't been shown much insight on his character yet to really know if he is born twisted or the pressure he has gone through made him who he is. Pressure makes anyone do stupid things when the Damn breaks. I'm sure the writers will give more insight on his character. If he was really this aweful character he wouldn't have done what he has done for cheetara. He might've not thought about the weight of death and maybe only thought as far as making his brother vanish, not thinking what that would actually mean. Always being compared to your sibbling is really hard to go through.

The original Tygra was based off of integrity. I don't think the writers are going to trash this character atleast I hope.not. he was not a rational adult at that time, he was a child. I doubt he weighed the situation. I'm not saying what he did was right, nor am I defending the action if that was the intention. But so far we haven't heard any other time he has tried to get rid of his brother. And the show has shown some good moments between them as well.

Until I see more of the show and see more of the past they shared, I think he has been nothing but troubled and slightly impulsive. But I know I.wouldn't be happy taking orders from someone to do something when I believed it.needed to be done another way.

And I have done plenty of research on why people do the things they do what they are thinking. And forgiving means understanding and it doesn't sound like your trying to understand his character at all.

If I wasn't trying to understand his character I wouldn't have voiced my thoughts about him and it wasn't his character(personality) I was questionning its his motives and reasoning for what he did and does. I do have have siblings, and sum of you my be missing my points and not looking deep into this which is fine and I never said Tygra is bad/evil, but who is? but sum of you try to put all his actions on a weight of scales its like you are saying for every bad thing he has done the good things resolve him of it and thats ludicrus life don't work that way If you kill a person then save 1000 people does that act resolve that one death? really think about that. but your view is yours just like mine is mine I'm not looking anyones agreement.When it comes down too it most of the things we say are circumstancal anyway we don't actually see some of the things we adjoin to the characters anyway for example He said he rushed to get help do we actually see that? Based on his behavior and it was you IN THAT PIT would you believe him?Come on! The pilot is the pilot look at the series as a whole so far with the info we have and make your statements. opinions ,judgements etc...

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

I don't believe for a second that Tygra hates Lion-o, I said on another site that I believe that Tygra was the son of a friend and adopted by Claudus and his wife who were having trouble conceiving. tygra likely spent the first couple of years being told he was destined to be king but then lion-o was born, and tygra likely felt he would always be second best . I believe this is why tygra us so angry , its not lion-o he hates its the situation he'a been dealing with since be was a cub.

That doesn't make sense to me because in the episode with panthro and grune grune says " one day i plan to rule this kingdom" panthro laughs and says "do you plan on becoming a lion ?"
so it would seem only a lion can be king or one who has a lot of lion features so the idea of tygra being told he would one day be king doesn't add up unless he is actually the son of claudus and got passed over because he looks like a tiger and lion-o looks like lion and thats why tygra is so mad at lion-o. I say this because in would seem leo and panthera were couple a lion like cat would be next in line maybe that why claudus is so big cus leo looked real short to me and panthera was real tall

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

That doesn't make sense to me because in the episode with panthro and grune grune says " one day i plan to rule this kingdom" panthro laughs and says "do you plan on becoming a lion ?"
so it would seem only a lion can be king or one who has a lot of lion features so the idea of tygra being told he would one day be king doesn't add up unless he is actually the son of claudus and got passed over because he looks like a tiger and lion-o looks like lion and thats why tygra is so mad at lion-o. I say this because in would seem leo and panthera were couple a lion like cat would be next in line maybe that why claudus is so big cus leo looked real short to me and panthera was real tall

good point, but didn't lion-o say that the people of thundera thought tygra would make a better king?

[The Superman J]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenshon

The pilot is the pilot look at the series as a whole so far with the info we have and make your statements. opinions ,judgements etc...

Wait, so this says that since Claudus was killed in the Pilot episodes, Thundera was destroyed in the Pilot episodes, Jaga was captured and tortured in the Pilot episodes, Lion-O was made King in the Pilot episodes, Lion-O was chosen by the Sword of Omens in the Pilot episode, that none of that is fact and should be disregarded? Ok.

But then we are suppose to look at the series as a whole....but the pilot is the series, infact it sets up the entire series....exactly how is this...?


There is alot of cherry picking going on here. Its obvious you are pretty much just not a fan of Tygra and therefore extorting his character flaws to try and justify your opinion. Which is fine, Tygra is certainly a character with issues but he is certainly not beyond forgiveness, is in no way a villan, and is very much entitled to both the sympathy and empathy of the audience. While I am not a big fan of him, this is exactly why I find his character very interesting.

Everyone has their opinion, which by definition can't be wrong, however it can still be very misguided by false facts, misrepresentations, and closed mindedness.


BTW. Very poor example to use comparing the value of lives. You kill 1 person to save 1000. So by your logic you would say that killing the 1 to save 1000 was wrong? You would kill 1000 people to save 1? I think you can easily see what is wrong with this picture and your train of thought. The 1 death may not be resolved in saving 1000, but the value of saving 1000 should not be lost on the one. I guess though if we wanted to have a clear conscience, 1001 people could die and then it'd be ok.

I am really not meaning to come across as picking on you. I have edited my post here to try and get rid of that vibe the best I could so I really don't mean for you to take offense. It just really seems to me that you are going above and beyond to try and make Tygra out to be the bad guy, and completely throwing rationality out the window while dismissing blatantly obvious character traits that say differently.

[Pand3mix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Superman J

About the Cheetara thing - we saw when the group was resting in the desert trying to find shade Cheetara and Tygra both cuddled up resting on each other. We have also seen in many background shots the two of them standing together closer than the rest of the cast. So thats something there.

That makes no sense, they stand close together and that means they've got a stronger connection and makes it okay to kiss and hold hands with lion-O? And are we talking about the Berbil episode when it started raining? Cause to me it looked like she had slumped over in her sleep. It didn't look like any form of actually cuddling. Maybe I just fail at grasping how that appears to be something there but the interactions with lion-o are only friendly. She was seen touching lion-o, vs standing close to Tygra. Sorry but i feel her interaction with Tygra was minimal at best when compared to Lion-o and het interactions.

[Big Snarf]

[QUOTE=stormbringer;22727]good point, but didn't lion-o say that the people of thundera thought tygra would make a better king?[/ He did? can'y remember hearing that. I remember tygra saying " its no wonder people are saying you are not fit to be king" or something to that extent. Then later grune says to tygra "i see so much of myself in you and you would've made a great king ah but such things are only for the bloodline" the claudus gets pissed because that a cheap shot him and says "lion-o to will make a great king" then tygra says "yeah but would've made a better one". So from the star tygra knew he would never be king. I don't even think tygra was next inline to the throne i think jaga would've been the ruler until he appoints another king which would be lion from somewhere and tygra would get pass by again

[stormbringer]

its kinda hard to know who can and be ruler with out us having a better idea of thundera political structure.

[rlw1984]

I thought that the episode was really good, and I enjoyed it thoroughly. The battle between Lion-O and Tygra was really intense, and it was interesting to see how Tygra's jealously towards his younger brother had lead him to betray, not to mention nearly kill him back when they were just kids. As for the kiss at the end, I think it will be interesting to see what happens when season 2 is released. Personally, I think the only way this could see that Lion-O could ever feel betrayed by his brother was the fact that Tygra told him that he would never betray him and then afterwards got together with the girl who he has had strong feelings for. I don't see this like a betrayal because Cheetara did make a choice, however, the only issue I have with the whole episode is, if she had feelings for Tygra all these years, then why did she lead Lion-O on like she did? It just doesn't make sense

[>EXO<]

Excellent episode. I agree with everyone else's opinion on Lion-O's swordfighting skills seem to come and go. But maybe the drifter just taught him how to beat the swordfighter in a unique way... I dunno. It all comes down to what served the story I guess. It seems to be how the writers treat each episode.

As for Cheetara, maybe she had developed feelings for Lion-O too. But it also seemed like she was trying to strengthen Lion-O's belief in himself and can't help but be smoking hot while she does it... lol. In any case, just remember that Tygra was a man of the people before all this started and Lion-O chose to stay in doors and become a technology geek. Cheetara probably saw Tygra winning competitions and doing heroic things for the kingdom all that time before war broke out. So combine that with their history, I think it would make sense that she's been infatuated with Tygra all this time and since the Cartoon is Lion-O centric, we never really get to see that point of view.

I think it's time for them to discover the Amazon women so Lion-O can get over it.

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

its kinda hard to know who can and be ruler with out us having a better idea of thundera political structure.

It would seem according to the show dialect that only lions can be kings hence the grune and panthro conversation. grune says "one day i will rule this kingdom" panthro the laughs and says " do you plan on becoming a lion"

[ThunderClaw]

I want to respond to some the posts I've been reading. Some people have suggested the same ideas I have. I agree that Lion-O should break off from the group and try his own journey. Some people don't agree with that, saying will hurt the dynamic of the group as a whole. Which it would, however you need to look at the picture as a whole. To me the story of a hero should go like this: You start off on your own, making your own way into the world protecting and defending it, the way you think you should before you just go off starting in a group and trying to protect the world as a group. It brings problems if you do that! What I'm saying is that there is a difference between a group and a team; a group to me is individuals that come together to work for what they believe as individuals and a team to me is are individuals who work as a whole for a common goal rather than their individual goals. The team is more family orientated to me! You don't just come together from the start. Think about some of the great superhero teams like the Justice League, The X-Men, The Straw Hat Pirates and the different teams in Naruto. First they worked on their individual skills, grew as people and then as superheroes.

For example, Batman didn't start off in the Justice league. He started as a boy working to become a man and working on his skills to fight evil at a very young age, and from that he started honing his skills to work on his superhero identity to strike fear in the heart of evil! Then after he established his identity as a superhero, he went on his way fighting crime. He found some people in trouble; troubled kids that he helped raise, grooming them into sidekicks! And then when the world needed more than one person, a team formed of individuals that had also worked on their individual goals in life. Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Lantern, Flash, etc. came together and start protecting the world as a team, each caring for each other, watching each other's back and slowly became a family! They always had at least a stable core to hold the team together!

The same can be said for the X-Men; basically a group of individuals that the world had come to hate all coming together as a family to overcome the hate and protect the world. They’re kind of like the orphans of the world but no one really wanted them other than Charles Xavier! Many of them had to work on their individual processes of just being themselves. Case in point Wolverine! From what little we know of him he went from man to soldier to weapon to superhero to legend! I shan't go into great detail about him but those of you who know of him remember how he came from being at the very least a World War II soldier all the way to being a member of the New Avengers and The Avengers and the headmaster at the new Jean Grey Institute!

Now some of you might be saying how come I haven't brought up The Avengers. Well to me The Avengers were never really a good team. They are great group. If you think about their origins and how they came together they were never really a team, more just a group of strong individuals. The Invincible Ironman, the Incredible Hulk, The Mighty Thor, the Wasp, Antman, and later, Capt. America! Each one of them is one of the greatest superheroes, however almost from right when they came together, they fell apart! There were problems like as the Hulk not getting along with anyone! And since the beginning their parts kept changing, they were never really stable as a long-term team and I think part of their problem was their just getting along as a team. They got along great as a group working for the common good but not everyone believed in each other or wanted to be around each other. Then just recently the Avengers just “Disassembled” and the New Avengers were born!

The New Avengers in my eyes are the best example of what the Avengers could have been. If you follow their story from the day the New Avengers formed all way to the end of Siege you can see them grow as a family dynamic and a group of individuals who really care for each other. The core of the team remains the same throughout the series. The original New Avengers were Capt. America, Iron Man, the Sentry, Luke Cage, Jessica Jones a.k.a. Jewel, Spider-man, Spider Woman, and Wolverine. During the Civil War, each member of the team had to choose a side. Sure there were some differences but more or less the team remains whole. It was Capt. America, Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, Spiderman, Spider Woman, and Wolverine. It was when they were on the run from the law that the New Avengers went from a group to a team, each one of whom are on the run from the law, and each one only had each other to trust, to watch over each other. That’s what made them more a team than a group. Over the next few stories we saw the team grow closer to each other as during the events of the “Secret Invasion”, “Dark Reign”, and in “Siege”! They didn't just start as New Avengers, each character has their own origins and past that led them to become New Avengers. Each one has their own way of doing things and had to work from their past in order to become what they are today: The New Avengers!

And that's what I think Lion-O has to do. He has to first understand what it means to be a hero by going off into the world and trying to find his place in it; going from a teenager to man, a man to a hero, a hero to a legend, a legend to a King! We know very little about his back story, but what I have gathered is that he's been safely behind the walls of the kingdom training here and there. It sounds like he has a short attention span. Every so often he does go off on his own looking for new things such as technology, as we learned in the pilot episode. He is different from his father and brother in that he believes in kindness towards others than dominance over them. We also see in the pilot episode how he reacts to how the lizards are being treated and what he does after he finds out they were only going after food for their families! He is different than his brother and he understands what it takes to be a great leader and one day a king! He's head and shoulders above his brother in that regard. However, even from the pilot episode all the way to the latest episode we saw his combat skills are severely lacking compared to his brother. If I remember correctly, he has only won three fights on his own so far; one against the duelists, one against a slave trader, and one against the paper master. Most of the other fights that are more of a challenge he has lost or had someone else step in to help! In order for him to be a leader and someone for people to follow he has to start winning those fights on his own! If you just have the Thunder Kittens with him on his journey he would just have to protect and watch over them. In the current group dynamic that he finds himself he always has someone to protect him like Cheetara, Tygra, or Panthro, which is both good and bad. However, as recent events show it will hurt his pride to have Cheetara or Tygra saving him! And there's another reason that he should be alone right now and that is that vengeance and jealousy often lead to the “dark side”. As it stands right now if he stays in the group and he tries to be the leader that he should be quiet about the relationship that Cheetara and Tygra seem to have. After he was led on by Cheetara his feelings can turn to bitterness, anger, and resentment towards Tygra, and turn Lion-O’s “lion heart” into something dark. He could very easily lose the very qualities that we all love about him that will make him a great king one day!

There's another reason why I think he should be out on his own. Like I said before he's seemed to be in the kingdom all throughout his life and the way you learn about a new world is by going out in it on your own making mistakes and learning from them. If you had someone always pointing out what to do for you, you will never truly learn from your choices! Having the Thunder Kittens around will help him understand how to protect something precious. The other big cats can defend themselves easily enough, but if it was just him can he protect himself and protect others with no one there to back them up. These are just some the questions I have. Of course, but journey like this can't be done in one episode. I think it will be best to have an entire season and then at the very end have the two teams come together both showing how they grown both with and apart from each other!

I also read how some people have questioned if Lion-O leaves the group it might hurt the show. I don't think it will and here's why. You could create more stories about individual back stories and their character growth. If you went back and forth between one episode all about Lion-O team and then an episode on the dynamic of Tigre’s teams this could be a turning point in the relationship of Cheetara and Tygra if they really have one! Will she still like him if she sees what we see; the dark bitterness over his brother. Would you still want to be with him! Remember he didn't want to help the lizards when they were in trouble in prison. He thought they got what they deserved. It was Lion-O who intervened not Tygra! Can a relationship survive on just the one act of kindness of a flower? And what about Tygra? If we gave him the ability to use the Sword and the Shield and he has the girl is he truly happy? Is he really a better leader than his brother? If we put him in the spotlight does he shine brightly or fall flat on his face! And what about Panthro with losing both his arms and his quest for vengeance fulfilled? Where does it leave him? He needs to stay with the group! He is the only one that has been outside of the kingdom and knows about technology other than Lion-O! If he goes with Lion-O I think Tygra and Cheetara would be lost without him! Just think what dynamic storytelling can be done with them being separated! Cheetara worries about Lion-O and wonders if he is alright, then she gains the "sixth sense" ability and has dreams/visions of him. Do both Lion-O and Cheetara dream and are they real dreams or do they have a real connection? With the fact that Tygra has been given the right to lead does he make the right choice or the wrong choice? You can develop the story with the Thunder Kittens more; why do they want to go to "the lost city of El Dara" and we can learn through Lion-O what happened to their parents.

I read some people complaining about new characters such as Pumyra and Ben-Gali. I even suggested putting Demolisher on the team as a sword/combat master to Lion-O. There are rightful questions on where were Pumyra, and Ben-Gali during the fall of the thunder cats lair? Are they even truly thunder cats or are they clones to help Mumm-Ra destroy the thunder cats. Were they banished from the kingdom or offsprings of banished families or what? I think you would have a good storyline if you keep guessing all the way up to the end of the second season finale who are they? Where did they come from and what do they want? And I do agree that hopefully they will not do a flashback where Pumyra always liked Lion-O from afar that's just lazy and stupid writing. If they do something Pumyra and Lion-O I hope it's new and fresh when it happens. I remember very little from the original series and what I do remember are just flashes and I fill the blanks but while reading what's on the Wikipedia site I don't know if Pumyra/Lion-O is a good or bad relationship or if a Pumyra/Panthro would be better especially now he lost his hands! And if that's the case then either Lion-O must win Cheetara back with kindness, love, understanding, respect, or you have to create a new thunder cat or a different species female partner for Lion-O!

The last thing I will leave you for a reason for the group to split is the fact that in this world Lion-O must unite the races and in order for that to work you have to have equality across the board. Finding a way for his brother to use a sword and shield is a way to say he doesn't care about the blood line and that he wants the best person for the job to win! If he wants to have his own brother believe in him he needs to first find belief in himself. We don't know much about the past of this world all we do know are bits and pieces, such as when they first fell onto the third Earth a lot of Lion-O’s ancestors wanted to unite the races but envy of the power stones caused problems and thus it never happened. His ancestors were once the top power over the world but were overcome. He has to find a way to overcome this and a way to do so is to understand the world around him and to show that he doesn't care about royal ancestry or anything. He just wants best person to win the job and to able to have people believe in that person. If he thinks it's him he has to go out and earn it and not just rely on bloodlines and dominance!

Those are my feelings and thinking on it! Tell me your thoughts on the matter! Thanks for your time.

[Pand3mix]

Uh, thunderclaw, you brought a lot of good examples, but I wouldn't brought up naruto, a because they were assigned to their teams and B, cause of how long it has been going on I feel like its lost quiet abit of its credibility as a comic. Two, I think that's one of the longest posts here. Maybe you should've cut that post down by taking out some of the examples.

Other then that I do agree lion-o would benafit on a few different levels if he did some exploration on his own for awhile.