Thundercats Ep 16 Trials of Lion-O Pt 2 Discussion

[KaleRylan]

I'm going to be tacky and multipost here without a quote, but I wanted to mention that I really like what they did with Kit here and I hope they keep going with it. Having her be the one that believes in Lion-o could go a long way towards giving her a role.

Sure, it's a function of Lion-o, but in a story that is at the end of the day about Lion-o it's an important role. And it could help Lion-o mature a lot if he knows that there is one thundercat who, no matter what happens, will still believe in him. That could do a lot to help his confidence. Which in turn could make him a less annoying character.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

Maybe it's just where I grew up, but cheek kissing was NOT NORMAL there. If a single female I knew had done that outside of a few VERY SPECIFIC instances, i would have taken it as romantic. Hand-holding you are totally right, but we also have to account for this being a kid's show. They're not going to depict romance by having them tearing each other's clothes off like a prime-time drama. Hand-holding and things of that sort are going to be how they depict it. And some basic kissing.

your second point I basically agree, and wish Lion-o would get over it.

Your third point is getting kind of a stereotype-y. You may be right, but I don't know many single females that would treat a single male near their age in 'sisterly' fashion either. Because such things would likely cause misunderstandings and quite possibly be taken romantically.

I grew up in southern California. Culturally, cheek kissing is considered a form of greeting in some families. Oh, and I've kissed my brother on the cheek, sisters too. Grandma too. Friends too (male and female) Everybody.

Basically, I think it was played vague enough for the audience to argue over if she was into him or not.

The reason I got stereotype-y is because, "women only do XYZ if their interested" is a stereotype. I wanted your input on the whole dependent v Alpha Male, and how it is viewed when it comes to being stereotypical.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

I grew up in southern California. Culturally, cheek kissing is considered a form of greeting in some families. Oh, and I've kissed my brother on the cheek, sisters too. Grandma too. Friends too (male and female) Everybody.

Basically, I think it was played vague enough for the audience to argue over if she was into him or not.

The reason I got stereotype-y is because, "women only do XYZ if their interested" is a stereotype. I wanted your input on the whole dependent v Alpha Male, and how it is viewed when it comes to being stereotypical.

I grew up in the midwest, we're a bit less touchy-feely there. I have to say though that, given the stated goal of having a love triangle, I think the writers wanted it to be taken romantically. I think it was a bit of a troll on their part. Oh, we do kiss our family on the cheek sometimes. Friends though is unusual. Not unheard of, but unusual.

I understand, I wasn't mad about the stereotype just saying. I agree that usually you expect the alpha-male/dependent female thing in a show like this, so one could argue that the cheetara behavior wasn't standard romantic behavior. It's hard to say, but I would guess what you've got here is a stereotype that's breaking. Because I DO believe the authors intended those scenes to be romantic, even if it was a red herring.

But you're right in that it would be an unusual media romance with an older, more capable female being romantically involved with a younger, more immature male character. Not standard children's show romance. Although I guess that's basically what it was with Aang and Katara in Avatar as well. Though everyone in that show was young. I really wish they would have aged up every character in that show by 2 to 3 years, all of the character interactions would have made more sense. That's basically what they're doing in Legend of Korra though, so yay.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunchie

Chique, you make a valid point. I guess to me she seemed like the one who wanted to smooth things over between everyone and not rock the boat. I guess I just saw her as a mediator of sorts. That's not to say she never disagreed or never had her own opinion.

You are true in saying characters need depth. However, hers came across as "Where did that come from?" A fault in not having a Cheetara centered episode or a personal history flashback that wasn't used for the triangle as of yet. Or really a whole lot of dialogue for that matter now that I think about it. Once again, not her fault, the writing.

I would be interested in hearing where you think her character growth is heading for if this the mid-point of the show.

"The Lion-O we got during season one would NEVER sacrifice his own brother."

True but, when had a situation, where he had to choose between certain death (which it was) and the well being of his comrade (without any sort of alternate option available) came up before in season one? Thinking on that now, I think it would be interesting for Lion-O to have to deal with the consequences of such a choice in a future episode (IE, choosing to save himself and the others over someone's life. Hopefully it won't be his brother)

Finally, no I do not watch Young Justice, but I know of it. I read some comics and the weird DC continuity perturbs me (IE Dick Grayson, Wally West, and Conner Kent being some of the primary members when the comic Young Justice was started by Superboy, Tim Drake, and Impulse)

(Also Zatanna is bout the same age as robin when in the comics she's actually closer to Batman's age?)

The animation and writing I think are well done but....I think I am too used to the DC cartoon continuity of previous shows like Batman/Superman adventures and JLU. Also I can't find myself liking any of the characters and trust me when I say Dick Grayson is MY BOY! When you can't get me to root for Dick Grayson like a high school cheerleader, you must be doing something wrong but so help me I do not know what that is.

Lion-O's biggest character trait is his compassion and empathy. It's those two things that make him able to see that the lizards are not wrong to be at war with the cats. He sees that the cats have put them in a horrible situation. Basically, he has a big heart. Now your telling me that same character wouldn't at least attempt to find a way to save his own brother?

It's Young Justice only in name. The producers have said as much. It's pretty good. If you have the time after Thundercats, I would rec it.
Dick actually doesn't get a butt load of screen time. I remember thinking he would based off popularity alone.
Perfomance was a Robin centric episode. It made me cry.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

I grew up in the midwest, we're a bit less touchy-feely there. I have to say though that, given the stated goal of having a love triangle, I think the writers wanted it to be taken romantically. I think it was a bit of a troll on their part. Oh, we do kiss our family on the cheek sometimes. Friends though is unusual. Not unheard of, but unusual.

I understand, I wasn't mad about the stereotype just saying. I agree that usually you expect the alpha-male/dependent female thing in a show like this, so one could argue that the cheetara behavior wasn't standard romantic behavior. It's hard to say, but I would guess what you've got here is a stereotype that's breaking. Because I DO believe the authors intended those scenes to be romantic, even if it was a red herring.

But you're right in that it would be an unusual media romance with an older, more capable female being romantically involved with a younger, more immature male character. Not standard children's show romance. Although I guess that's basically what it was with Aang and Katara in Avatar as well.

And that is why I couldn't stand the Kataang romance.She came off so motherly, that her eventual attraction was kinda creepy.
I can see how someone would take those scenes as romantic, but I still see how it can be considered platonic. I can see the potential for both sides to have a valid argument. I think the writers wanted us to question it, which is why it was played with vaguely. Well, on Cheetara's part. Am I making sense?

[Singe]

To Katara, Aang was the plain chocolate in the center of a chocolate sample box. She was going to wind up with him anyway since all the other guys she flirted with were temporary.

[Chique]

Not just media romance, but real life.

Weak or not, self-dependency seems to be very important when picking a mate. It looked like Cheetara was literally and figuratively doing a lot of hand holding. Were they ever shown just hanging out, or did all of their "romantic scenes" involve Cheetara telling Lion-O that he was capable? It was always about helping Lion-O feel better.

Also, you want to feel like your only equal footing with your mate. Cheetara sees herself as his subject, he is her king. Even when she thinks he's wrong, she usually goes along with it. If anyone questions it, they do it because he is the king. I think a good love interest would assert herself more, be more aggressive. King or not, if I'm going to support it, the love interest needs to be seen as compatible. She has no problem telling Tygra to shove it, so that was a point in that ships favor for me.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

And that is why I couldn't stand the Kataang romance.She came off so motherly, that her eventual attraction was kinda creepy.
I can see how someone would take those scenes as romantic, but I still see how it can be considered platonic. I can see the potential for both sides to have a valid argument. I think the writers wanted us to question it, which is why it was played with vaguely. Well, on Cheetara's part. Am I making sense?

I agree basically with what you're saying (though I liked Katara and Aang).

However, I think it would have worked better had the writers not so prominently announced in half the interviews that it was a love triangle. Because what we've got here is just a guy and a girl who liked each other all along, and a boy on the sidelines who got confused. And had they left it to the viewers to figure it out, I think it would have been less screwy. But they called it a love triangle and said there would be some romantic tension the whole season. And there WAS romantic tension the whole season. AND then they gave an explanation that basically retconned all of Cheetara's behavior.

Had they just left it all up to the viewers' discretion I think there would be a lot less complaining. The other thing that would have helped is more romantic scenes with Tygra instead of just Lion-o. As it is nearly every scene she has is with Lion-o and then they suddenly do a flashback and pretend it's development.

It's like the Black Panther/Storm marriage from a while. Marvel decided they wanted them married, but the two characters had no previous interactions, so marvel just published a flash-back miniseries showing how, ACTUALLY, they'd known and loved each other all along. Problem solved. Except it's not, because that kind of thing doesn't work on fans that have been following these characters all along.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

To Katara, Aang was the plain chocolate in the center of a chocolate sample box. She was going to wind up with him anyway since all the other guys she flirted with were temporary.

I don't get the chocolate thing, is that good or bad? That's the thing though, she was maternal and sisterly with Aang. I couldn't imagine her treating Jet like she treated Aang.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

Not just media romance, but real life.

Weak or not, self-dependency seems to be very important when picking a mate. It looked like Cheetara was literally and figuratively doing a lot of hand holding. Were they ever shown just hanging out, or did all of their "romantic scenes" involve Cheetara telling Lion-O that he was capable? It was always about helping Lion-O feel better.

Also, you want to feel like your only equal footing with your mate. Cheetara sees herself as his subject, he is her king. Even when she thinks he's wrong, she usually goes along with it. If anyone questions it, they do it because he is the king. I think a good love interest would assert herself more, be more aggressive. King or not, if I'm going to support it, the love interest needs to be seen as compatible. She has no problem telling Tygra to shove it, so that was a point in that ships favor for me.

That's getting a little TOO stereotype-y for me. Relationships come in all shapes and sizes.

While I agree, and prefer, to be on equal footing with my mate, such an argument is a little irrelevant for a king. It's the nature of the beast that no mate is EVER on an equal footing with a king, and was likely their subject before they were married, especially in a world where your whole race is your kingdom, so you can't even go one kingdom over to find a bride not in awe of your station.

That said, I have no problem with compatibility, and hope they show Pumyra, or someone, who has compatibility with Lion-o become his Love Interest. Cheetara could have worked, but I was always pretty convinced she'd end up with Tygra.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

I don't get the chocolate thing, is that good or bad? That's the thing though, she was maternal and sisterly with Aang. I couldn't imagine her treating Jet like she treated Aang.

Seriously off-topic, but whatever. I think Katara LIKED being maternal. She'd been doing it since she was little, so I think it was kind of her happy place. Some girls enjoy that sort of thing, just like there are guys that enjoy caring for their GF/wife. And it's not like Aang wasn't capable of being an alpha male. He was a pretty good leader when he wanted to be, the most powerful warrior on the planet, and was quite mature for his age. The trick is to get him to put in the effort.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

I agree basically with what you're saying (though I liked Katara and Aang).

However, I think it would have worked better had the writers not so prominently announced in half the interviews that it was a love triangle. Because what we've got here is just a guy and a girl who liked each other all along, and a boy on the sidelines who got confused. And had they left it to the viewers to figure it out, I think it would have been less screwy. But they called it a love triangle and said there would be some romantic tension the whole season. And there WAS romantic tension the whole season. AND then they gave an explanation that basically retconned all of Cheetara's behavior.

Had they just left it all up to the viewers' discretion I think there would be a lot less complaining. The other thing that would have helped is more romantic scenes with Tygra instead of just Lion-o. As it is nearly every scene she has is with Lion-o and then they suddenly do a flashback and pretend it's development.

It's like the Black Panther/Storm marriage from a while. Marvel decided they wanted them married, but the two characters had no previous interactions, so marvel just published a flash-back miniseries showing how, ACTUALLY, they'd known and loved each other all along. Problem solved. Except it's not, because that kind of thing doesn't work on fans that have been following these characters all along.

The only thing I felt that ship had, was Lion-O's obvious PHYSICAL attraction. We never seen the two bound over anything other than Lion-O needing encouragement. So far, that relationship is only about Lion-O feeling insecure and Cheetara telling him it's all ok.

I'm not a big MARVEL girl. Though, I was sad to hear Jean and Scott ended .

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

It's like the Black Panther/Storm marriage from a while. Marvel decided they wanted them married, but the two characters had no previous interactions, so marvel just published a flash-back miniseries showing how, ACTUALLY, they'd known and loved each other all along. Problem solved. Except it's not, because that kind of thing doesn't work on fans that have been following these characters all along.

I remember that story, when a couple of fans had the audacity to question it Joe Quesada basically told them to go f**k themselves.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

Seriously off-topic, but whatever. I think Katara LIKED being maternal. She'd been doing it since she was little, so I think it was kind of her happy place. Some girls enjoy that sort of thing, just like there are guys that enjoy caring for their GF/wife. And it's not like Aang wasn't capable of being an alpha male. He was a pretty good leader when he wanted to be, the most powerful warrior on the planet, and was quite mature for his age. The trick is to get him to put in the effort.

Aang came off selfish and immature to me, but hey that's the charm of being a 12 year old. Sure he could deliver, but we never forgot he was 12.

Katara on the other hand comes off very mature for her age. I think that's why so many had no problem pairing her off with Zuko. You could forget Katara was 14. Typically from my experiences, you don't want to parent your SO.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

The only thing I felt that ship had, was Lion-O's obvious PHYSICAL attraction. We never seen the two bound over anything other than Lion-O needing encouragement. So far, that relationship is only about Lion-O feeling insecure and Cheetara telling him it's all ok.

I'm not a big MARVEL girl. Though, I was sad to hear Jean and Scott ended .

No offense, but I think you're missing my point. As I pointed out, a major factor in this triangle has been the writers repeated insistence that it IS a triangle. This is not a matter of viewers reading into scenes innocently. This is viewers looking for the romantic tension that we were TOLD REPEATEDLY was there. If you argue that there was no romance, the whole thing ceases to make sense. What were the writers talking about in your view?

That is why, like I said, it would have been better if the writers had never said anything, then your interpretation would have very little to argue against it.

Fair enough.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

That's getting a little TOO stereotype-y for me. Relationships come in all shapes and sizes.

While I agree, and prefer, to be on equal footing with my mate, such an argument is a little irrelevant for a king. It's the nature of the beast that no mate is EVER on an equal footing with a king, and was likely their subject before they were married, especially in a world where your whole race is your kingdom, so you can't even go one kingdom over to find a bride not in awe of your station.

That said, I have no problem with compatibility, and hope they show Pumyra, or someone, who has compatibility with Lion-o become his Love Interest. Cheetara could have worked, but I was always pretty convinced she'd end up with Tygra.

That's the point Ive been trying to make for the last 4 months. It's unfair to judge someone based off of some idea you've had stored in your head for years. Sure we have our cultural norms, but who are we to judge someone when they don't fit into our boxes? This belief that women only show support when their romantically interested, is what leads to the problems like these. Saying stuff like, women only do this when they are this is a stereotype. It's unfair.

Relationships and the people in them come in all shapes and sizes.

For a romantic relationship to work, she cannot sit there and bow down to Lion-O's every wish. It's not something that's is going to, or should work. Yes Lion-O is a King, but the audience is not going to be susceptible to that kind of dynamic. Not in a romantic relationship. That would be uncomfortable to watch.
I would love to see Lion-O with someone who has no qualms about telling him no, or refusing him. Make him work for it, so to speak.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

Aang came off selfish and immature to me, but hey that's the charm of being a 12 year old. Sure he could deliver, but we never forgot he was 12.

Katara on the other hand comes off very mature for her age. I think that's why so many had no problem pairing her off with Zuko. You could forget Katara was 14. Typically from my experiences, you don't want to parent your SO.

You're right about Aang, but that was part of the charm of his character. Also they make very clear repeatedly that most of why Aang acted so immature was that he was running away from his responsibilities. He knew exactly what he was doing, and chose to do it because acting like a kid was more fun than having the weight of the whole world on his shoulders. Katara usually was what gave him the strength to actually take responsibility.

True, but as you of all people should accept, given your argument regarding Cheetara, there was little to no real interaction between Katara and Zuko, barring one or two episodes.

And what's an SO? Also, lot's of people enjoy feeling nurturing around their mates. Ideally it goes back and forth and finds an equilibrium.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

That's the point Ive been trying to make for the last 4 months. It's unfair to judge someone based off of some idea you've had stored in your head for years. Sure we have our cultural norms, but who are we to judge someone when they don't fit into our boxes? This belief that women only show support when their romantically interested, is what leads to the problems like these. Saying stuff like, women only do this when they are this is a stereotype. It's unfair.

Relationships and the people in them come in all shapes and sizes.

For a romantic relationship to work, she cannot sit there and bow down to Lion-O's every wish. It's not something that's is going to, or should work. Yes Lion-O is a King, but the audience is not going to be susceptible to that kind of dynamic. Not in a romantic relationship. That would be uncomfortable to watch.
I would love to see Lion-O with someone who has no qualms about telling him no, or refusing him. Make him work for it, so to speak.

I'm not going to write it again, since I assume you were writing this while I wrote the other one, but the writers calling this a LOVE TRIANGLE in all the interviews was a big factor here. It should not be ignored.

I agree with you about equality versus dominance in a relationship, but I think you're pushing too hard the other way. Thundercats is the story of a monarch. Yes it's a children's story; but it's still about a monarch, to have a character who does not accept Lion-o as king would undercut the truly important themes of the story (let's face it, the romance stuff IS secondary). They need to find a balance. There's no reason they can't have it both ways. Respect can provide a good basis for a relationship even if you don't have social equality.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

No offense, but I think you're missing my point. As I pointed out, a major factor in this triangle has been the writers repeated insistence that it IS a triangle. This is not a matter of viewers reading into scenes innocently. This is viewers looking for the romantic tension that we were TOLD REPEATEDLY was there. If you argue that there was no romance, the whole thing ceases to make sense. What were the writers talking about in your view?

That is why, like I said, it would have been better if the writers had never said anything, then your interpretation would have very little to argue against it.

Fair enough.

I don't think I'm missing your point, I just don't agree with it. Where were we told she would be romantically inclined to Lion-O? As far as I know, it was plainly stated that Lion-O would interpret her actions as romantic in the Thunder Thursday interview. Nothing was stated on her behalf. I'm not questioning the presence of romantic feelings, I questioning if those were Cheetara's intentions. I'm saying it wasn't plain as day that she was into Lion-O.

I've come to see this triangle as both boys interested in Cheetara, but no clarification on her feelings. If a triangle means she had to be interested in Lion-O, than the same would have to hold true for her feelings for Tygra. Maybe the definition of love triangle isnt as sound as we think? Sure three people were involved, but I don't see a twilight dynamic. More like two boys fighting over a girl.

I'm also not questioning if the writers wanted you to see the scenes as romantic. I already stated, I think it written so that you would QUESTION IT.

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

I don't get the chocolate thing, is that good or bad? That's the thing though, she was maternal and sisterly with Aang. I couldn't imagine her treating Jet like she treated Aang.

Daily Show joke.

Here's a question I have, would calling a Thundercat a pussycat be their version of an negative epithet.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

I don't think I'm missing your point, I just don't agree with it. Where were we told she would be romantically inclined to Lion-O? As far as I know, it was plainly stated that Lion-O would interpret her actions as romantic in the Thunder Thursday interview. Nothing was stated on her behalf. I'm not questioning the presence of romantic feelings, I questioning if those were Cheetara's intentions. I'm saying it was plain as day that she was into Lion-O.

I've come to see this triangle as both boys interested in Cheetara, but no clarification on her feelings. If a triangle means she had to be interested in Lion-O, than the same would have to hold true for her feelings for Tygra. Maybe the definition of love triangle isnt as sound as we think? Sure three people were involved, but I don't see a twilight dynamic. More like two boys fighting over a girl.

Yes, but there's a simple problem with your interpretation: No one likes it. The first goal of any and all media is to gain, and keep, fans who will spend money. Having everyone hate your primary characters is not a good plan.

You're being too specific. It's not that we were told how the love triangle would end. We were told there would be a love triangle. This romantic tension took the form of all the Lion-o/cheetara scenes. God knows there weren't any Tygra/Cheetara scenes. And then their final explanation basically retconned all those scenes out of existence. It would have been different if they had just said she was confused but picked Tygra. They didn't. It was poorly done. They showed NO development of one pair, lots of development of the other (romantic or not), and then they chose to argue that the pair with NO development was the real pair and the one with all the development was a figment of our collective imagination.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

You're right about Aang, but that was part of the charm of his character. Also they make very clear repeatedly that most of why Aang acted so immature was that he was running away from his responsibilities. He knew exactly what he was doing, and chose to do it because acting like a kid was more fun than having the weight of the whole world on his shoulders. Katara usually was what gave him the strength to actually take responsibility.

True, but as you of all people should accept, given your argument regarding Cheetara, there was little to no real interaction between Katara and Zuko, barring one or two episodes.

And what's an SO? Also, lot's of people enjoy feeling nurturing around their mates. Ideally it goes back and forth and finds an equilibrium.

I LOVED Zutara, but you wont ever hear me make an actual argument for it (maybe the last few episodes). Sokka was related, and Jett vanished and then died. I also like Haru.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

Yes, but there's a simple problem with your interpretation: No one likes it. The first goal of any and all media is to gain, and keep, fans who will spend money. Having everyone hate your primary characters is not a good plan.

You're being too specific. It's not that we were told how the love triangle would end. We were told there would be a love triangle. This romantic tension took the form of all the Lion-o/cheetara scenes. God knows there weren't any Tygra/Cheetara scenes. And then their final explanation basically retconned all those scenes out of existence. It would have been different if they had just said she was confused but picked Tygra. They didn't. It was poorly done. They showed NO development of one pair, lots of development of the other (romantic or not), and then they chose to argue that the pair with NO development was the real pair and the one with all the development was a figment of our collective imagination.

Im not saying those scenes were not romantic, I'm questioning if those were Cheetara's motives. You are saying that for there to be a triangle, she HAD to be romantically interested in him, right?

This show is majorly from Lion-O's perspective. We got everything through Lion-O's eyes. We never saw Cheetara blush or stutter around Lion-O. We never saw them just hanging out our trying to learn more about each other. All we got was Lion-O feeling like a putz, and then Cheetara swooping in for the rescue.

You think it was poorly done, that is your opinion and I'm not going to try and change it The only thing I'm bringing to question or trying to debate, are Cheetara's motives.

If Cheetara behaved like Lion-O, I would be pissed that she chose Tygra. My point is, that it was played vaguely enough that I don't feel like she was lying to anyone. If the creators said nothing about the triangle, then it would have been ok? Even if she acted the way she did, you would have been ok as long as no one mentioned it was a triangle?

[Chique]

No one gets into Thundercats because of the romance, that would be silly. If you left because of the last 5 minuets of Between Brothers, than I doubt you would have made it through 52 episodes.

I still like her, well, as much as I ever did.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

Im not saying those scenes were not romantic, I'm questioning if those were Cheetara's motives. You are saying that for there to be a triangle, she HAD to be romantically interested in him, right?

This show is majorly from Lion-O's perspective. We got everything through Lion-O's eyes. We never saw Cheetara blush or stutter around Lion-O. We never saw them just hanging out our trying to learn more about each other. All we got was Lion-O feeling like a putz, and then Cheetara swooping in for the rescue.

You think it was poorly done, that is your opinion and I'm not going to try and change it The only thing I'm bringing to question or trying to debate, are Cheetara's motives.

If Cheetara behaved like Lion-O, I would be pissed that she chose Tygra. My point is, that it was played vaguely enough that I don't feel like she was lying to anyone. If the creators said nothing about the triangle, then it would have been ok? Even if she acted the way she did, you would have been ok as long as no one mentioned it was a triangle?

In many ways yes. Because my argument is that how writers make fans FEEL is just as important as the events that occur within a piece of media. This can take numerous levels. Interviews being one, but also the thrust of a story being another. These are not real people, these events do not occur in a vacuum. Stories have goals, and purposes, and points ASIDE from the intentions of the individuals contained within the story.

My point is that even if, by using real life standards, Cheetara didn't lead Lion-o on, the writers lead the fans on. Though I think Cheetara's innocence is seriously debatable, had a girl done that with me, I would be VERY frustated and a bit betrayed. I would try to be less immature about it than Lion-o was, but it would probably ruin our friendship for at least a while.

Cheetara is not a real person, she has no motives. And I think by limiting the argument to that extent, you leave out large portions of what went wrong with this triangle and why so many fans are so angry about it. And saying it was from Lion-o's POV is an overstatement. The show is third person, we do not hear Lion-o's thoughts. He does get the most screen-time by far, but we have no more insight into his actions than we do any of the other characters, except for the familiarity that comes with seeing him do more stuff.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

In many ways yes. Because my argument is that how writers make fans FEEL is just as important as the events that occur within a piece of media. This can take numerous levels. Interviews being one, but also the thrust of a story being another. These are not real people, these events do not occur in a vacuum. Stories have goals, and purposes, and points ASIDE from the intentions of the individuals contained within the story.

My point is that even if, by using real life standards, Cheetara didn't lead Lion-o on, the writers lead the fans on. Though I think Cheetara's innocence is seriously debatable, had a girl done that with me, I would be VERY frustated and a bit betrayed. I would try to be less immature about it than Lion-o was, but it would probably ruin our friendship for at least a while.

Cheetara is not a real person, she has no motives. And I think by limiting the argument to that extent, you leave out large portions of what went wrong with this triangle and why so many fans are so angry about it. And saying it was from Lion-o's POV is an overstatement. The show is third person, we do not hear Lion-o's thoughts. He does get the most screen-time by far, but we have no more insight into his actions than we do any of the other characters.

Quote:

Though I think Cheetara's innocence is seriously debatable, had a girl done that with me, I would be VERY frustated and a bit betrayed.

Didn't we just talk about stereotypes? Personally, I don't think Lion-O is wrong to feel angry (he likes her and thought she liked him too), but it's not justified . It's the way the media likes to spin this trope. Boy likes girl, boy and girl have a good relationship but girls doesn't want to have more. Let's turn the girl into a villainous harlot, and talk about how dumb she is to chose the ass hole. No mind that the boy never asked her how she felt. Also Cheetara has been VERY good to Lion-O. He doesn't even acknowledges that, which basically means he only seen her as a love interest.

Ok, how does recognizing that Cheetara has expressed little to no interest in anything but Lion-O, affect my interpretation of this triangle? If you ask me, Cheetara had less to do with the "triangle" than Lion-O and Tygra. While their interest was clear, hers was not.
Anyways, that was a response to her treatment as a character. People were complaining that she did little else other than encourage Lion-O. It made her dull and flat. Nothing else about her character was ever really addressed.I like 12 year old Cheetara way more than I like 19 year old Cheetara. That's because in an effort to make her likable, the author gave her a more dynamic personality. I had more opportunity to fall for her in that one scene, then I did in the rest of her screen time the entire season.

It wouldnt be the first time the author lead his/her audience on. It's not that uncommon.

[CCDustyV]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

Didn't we just talk about stereotypes? Personally, I don't think Lion-O is wrong to feel angry (he likes her and thought she liked him too), but it's not justified . It's the way the media likes to spin this trope. Boy likes girl, boy and girl have a good relationship but girls doesn't want to have more. Let's turn the girl into a villainous harlot, and talk about how dumb she is to chose the ass hole. No mind that the boy never asked her how she felt. Also Cheetara has been VERY good to Lion-O. He doesn't even acknowledges that, which basically means he only seen her as a love interest.
Ok, how does recognizing that Cheetara has expressed little to no interest in anything but Lion-O, affect my interpretation of this triangle? If you ask me, Cheetara had less to do with the "triangle" than Lion-O and Tygra. While their interest was clear, hers was not.
Anyways, that was a response to her treatment as a character. People were complaining that she did little else other than encourage Lion-O. It made her dull and flat. Nothing else about her character was ever really addressed.I like 12 year old Cheetara way more than I like 19 year old Cheetara. That's because in an effort to make her likable, the author gave her a more dynamic personality. I had more opportunity to fall for her in that one scene, then I did in the rest of her screen time the entire season.

It wouldnt be the first time the author lead his/her audience on. It's not that uncommon.

Part of the problem is Cheetara's 'excuse' for always watching over him. She tossed out the "Jaga told me to" card, and now even if she did honestly believe in him (which the last few eps has me question how much she really does) Lion O will be questioning how much of Cheetara is his friend and how much was her doing what her mentor asked her to do. It's like finding out your best friend was paid to be your friend.

Between her split second surrender in ep 14, and Kit having FAR more faith in Lion O surviving a fall than Cheetara (they saw him fall they didn't see him die) there's a lot more ground between them than the first 12 eps led us to believe, and that saddens me because I had hoped even chosing Tygra she'd remain Lion O's most stedfast support. She promised that she'd believe in him, and she's being trumped by a eight year old kitten.

I'm happy that Tygra and Lion O's relationship is getting its bridge patched up some, but his and Cheetara's needs some work done too if this team is going to hold together.

[Mako Crab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

No offense, but I think you're missing my point. As I pointed out, a major factor in this triangle has been the writers repeated insistence that it IS a triangle. This is not a matter of viewers reading into scenes innocently. This is viewers looking for the romantic tension that we were TOLD REPEATEDLY was there. If you argue that there was no romance, the whole thing ceases to make sense. What were the writers talking about in your view?

That is why, like I said, it would have been better if the writers had never said anything, then your interpretation would have very little to argue against it.

Fair enough.

In my case, I never saw the interviews, so I had no expectations. Maybe that's why this whole love triangle never bothered me the way it seems to others on this forum. I wasn't looking for any signs. Wasn't filling my head with notions of who was going to hook up with who. I was just watching and enjoying the show as each new episode aired, and thus far- every episode has been damn awesome.

As to the current episode- just great all around. I loved every minute of it.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

Didn't we just talk about stereotypes? Personally, I don't think Lion-O is wrong to feel angry (he likes her and thought she liked him too), but it's not justified . It's the way the media likes to spin this trope. Boy likes girl, boy and girl have a good relationship but girls doesn't want to have more. Let's turn the girl into a villainous harlot, and talk about how dumb she is to chose the ass hole. No mind that the boy never asked her how she felt. Also Cheetara has been VERY good to Lion-O. He doesn't even acknowledges that, which basically means he only seen her as a love interest.

Ok, how does recognizing that Cheetara has expressed little to no interest in anything but Lion-O, affect my interpretation of this triangle? If you ask me, Cheetara had less to do with the "triangle" than Lion-O and Tygra. While their interest was clear, hers was not.
Anyways, that was a response to her treatment as a character. People were complaining that she did little else other than encourage Lion-O. It made her dull and flat. Nothing else about her character was ever really addressed.I like 12 year old Cheetara way more than I like 19 year old Cheetara. That's because in an effort to make her likable, the author gave her a more dynamic personality. I had more opportunity to fall for her in that one scene, then I did in the rest of her screen time the entire season.

It wouldnt be the first time the author lead his/her audience on. It's not that uncommon.

I've never once argued that Lion-o has been acting anything other than immature, so I'll just leave that at that.

I never said your interpretation was affected because of how you interpret Cheetara, my point is that your WHOLE interpretation is based off of how you see Cheetara. There is a fourth party here, and that is the writers. Writers have GOALS, and intensions for stories. There are things that writers want you to think and ways they want you to interpret a scene. And my point is I think the writers manipulated fan sentiment in a crappy way here. They created a situation where a LOT of fans dislike their main three characters, I think fairly, and that is bad writing. Only looking at the fictional 'feelings' of the main characters leaves out the role of the writers not only in interviews and such, but in their clear intent for the plot within the show. Plots have purposes.

And you're behaving as though no matter what a writer does, it's inherently valid. Writers can be WRONG, they can create crappy media. You don't have to just take whatever they do at face value.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

I get that you're a feminist, and I respect that. But Cheetara is more than just a female in a show, she's a part of a story. She has a responsibility to be a workable part of the story and the cast. It doesn't matter if she's 'her own woman' if all she ever does is cause friction and problems with the other characters on the show, then she's a problem. If the majority of viewers DON'T LIKE HER, then she's a problem.

This is where once again the staff could learn a thing from the last airbender, a show known for its strong, consistent female characters. Characters that weren't just drama bombs.

As I've said several times, I WANTED her to end up with Tygra. That is not the problem. The problem isn't who she ended up with, or that she's not interested in Lion-o. It's that the whole turn of events has been written like crap. And as someone pointed out, she's suddenly forgotten to be supportive. Her argument that she wasn't leading him on is that she was nice to him because she honestly supports him as king. Okay, then WHY did she totally STOP supporting him when she chose Tygra? Her argument would make a lot more sense if her whole personality hadn't shifted.

All the romance aside, Cheetara not having any drive or focus outside of Lion-O made her boring and flat. If we are unable to form an attachment to a character, then we don't care to over look her "faults", because that is all she is. Lion-O can be a brat, but he still has a big heart and I can identify with being thrust into a job your not ready for. Tygra can be a jerk but works hard to prove he's worthy. Yet who doesn't know what its like to work for something, and never reach it? Panthro was best friends with Grune, and now they are enemies. Kit and Kat are orphans who dream of a city of gold. What about Cheetara?What are some of her goals, other than Lion-O? This doesn't have to include feminism to hold true. Her one dimensional focus has made her less accessible to the audience.

She didn't stop supporting him. She told him he was making a bad call, she advised him. And when he chose to ignore her advice, she chose to go after him anyways.

Because she was never given any drive or focus, people only gave a damn about her position in the love triangle. What is Cheetara, other than this love triangle?

[Sining]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

It's like the Black Panther/Storm marriage from a while. Marvel decided they wanted them married, but the two characters had no previous interactions, so marvel just published a flash-back miniseries showing how, ACTUALLY, they'd known and loved each other all along. Problem solved. Except it's not, because that kind of thing doesn't work on fans that have been following these characters all along.

Man, I remember that. And I remember thinking 'this is because they're both africans isn't it?' considering there was little if no interactions between the 2 characters. I recall black panther mostly interacting with the avengers, not the xmen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

I remember that story, when a couple of fans had the audacity to question it Joe Quesada basically told them to go f**k themselves.

Need I remind you of 'One more day'? Which suffers from as much bad writing as thundercats?

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

Yes, but there's a simple problem with your interpretation: No one likes it. The first goal of any and all media is to gain, and keep, fans who will spend money. Having everyone hate your primary characters is not a good plan.

You're being too specific. It's not that we were told how the love triangle would end. We were told there would be a love triangle. This romantic tension took the form of all the Lion-o/cheetara scenes. God knows there weren't any Tygra/Cheetara scenes. And then their final explanation basically retconned all those scenes out of existence. It would have been different if they had just said she was confused but picked Tygra. They didn't. It was poorly done. They showed NO development of one pair, lots of development of the other (romantic or not), and then they chose to argue that the pair with NO development was the real pair and the one with all the development was a figment of our collective imagination.

The love triangle isn't over. I don't know how they'll continue it since in the latest episode, it seems like everything is wrapped up and people learnt to put things behind them but I'm pretty sure it isn't over yet. The characters will probably regress AGAIN next episode. Or if they decide to stop making Lion-O carry the idiot ball, either Tygra or Cheetara will decide their relationship needs more drama.

[Singe]

One thing missing from the show is Lion-O doing a Malcom in the Middle thing by talking to the viewers.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

I've never once argued that Lion-o has been acting anything other than immature, so I'll just leave that at that.

I never said your interpretation was affected because of how you interpret Cheetara, my point is that your WHOLE interpretation is based off of how you see Cheetara. There is a fourth party here, and that is the writers. Writers have GOALS, and intensions for stories. There are things that writers want you to think and ways they want you to interpret a scene. And my point is I think the writers manipulated fan sentiment in a crappy way here. They created a situation where a LOT of fans dislike their main three characters, I think fairly, and that is bad writing. Only looking at the fictional 'feelings' of the main characters leaves out the role of the writers not only in interviews and such, but in their clear intent for the plot within the show. Plots have purposes.

And you're behaving as though no matter what a writer does, it's inherently valid. Writers can be WRONG, they can create crappy media. You don't have to just take whatever they do at face value.

We are derailing this thread. If you want, we can make another one or discuss it over PMs. But I cant piss and complain about derailment if I do it myself. I happen to like civil discussion but derailing is derailing.
Whether it means anything to you or not, I will PM you a response tomorrow evening. Or you can make a thread .

I like talking to you. As far as I can recall you have not written me off because I like Tygra. All things considered, it was refreshing.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sining

The love triangle isn't over. I don't know how they'll continue it since in the latest episode, it seems like everything is wrapped up and people learnt to put things behind them but I'm pretty sure it isn't over yet. The characters will probably regress AGAIN next episode. Or if they decide to stop making Lion-O carry the idiot ball, either Tygra or Cheetara will decide their relationship needs more drama.

The main purpose of Cheetara is for the triangle from the looks of everything (from tons of past interviews,data,etc,etc), otherwise she will be out of job So of course it will continue, if not in the next episode then it it will be in the other next episode and so on.
Jelenic said it himself a very important part of the story, albeit it's being written this bad.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

We are derailing this thread. If you want, we can make another one or discuss it over PMs. But I cant piss and complain about derailment if I do it myself. I happen to like civil discussion but derailing is derailing.
Whether it means anything to you or not, I will PM you a response tomorrow evening. Or you can make a thread .

I like talking to you. As far as I can recall you have not written me off because I like Tygra. All things considered, it was refreshing.

True, we are. I had begun to notice it too. A few posts ago I was trying to figure out quite where we had managed to get so off topic. Feel free to message me, I'll respond.

I have no problem with you liking Tygra. I like Tygra. Although I do wish they'd make him an ass less at unnecessary times. I'd like them to find a way to inject drama without making it seem like these six people don't even like each other. (To get back on topic a little) I think that is something this episode might be leading towards: Tygra understanding Lion-o's job, Kit having faith in her king, all of them realizing Lion-o usually comes through for them, Lion-o learning to be less immature, etc. I'm hoping this will lead to more group cohesion.

[Sining]

To be fair, I didn't mind season 1. It's season 2 that really annoys me. It's filled with too many inconsistencies and situations where you can tell the writer wants a certain thing to happen but has NO idea how to make it happen so he handwaves it into happening. The fight scenes are very indicative of this.

Plus, what did the trials of Lion-O really teach him?
1. Trust your instincts; how is this different from trusting what the book of omens told him? Does it somehow make it better if his instincts told him to go up instead of the BOO telling him to?
2. Cheat AKA Go for the shortcut; I have nothing against taking things easy but I'm not really sure what the message here is since they keep mentioning he likes to do things the hard way. I'm sure the actual message should be 'keep your eyes on the goal and look at different angles to win as much as possible' but it really came off as 'learn to take it easy' which isn't really something I think a King should be taking as a trial.
3. Abuse your power as king; to be fair, didn't a lot of people complain he was doing that? And didn't he order them to follow him in ep15 and there was still a lot of complaining? Didn't he basically say 'no, we're not surrendering' in episode 14 and yet people still surrendered? I'm not sure how this trial even helped.
4. Recognise your own fears; This was pretty much the only trial that I thought felt like an actual trial. He wasn't trying to beat Tygra so much as he was trying to get over his own feelings of inadequacy. None of the other trials had this.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sining

To be fair, I didn't mind season 1. It's season 2 that really annoys me. It's filled with too many inconsistencies and situations where you can tell the writer wants a certain thing to happen but has NO idea how to make it happen so he handwaves it into happening. The fight scenes are very indicative of this.

Plus, what did the trials of Lion-O really teach him?
1. Trust your instincts; how is this different from trusting what the book of omens told him? Does it somehow make it better if his instincts told him to go up instead of the BOO telling him to?
2. Cheat AKA Go for the shortcut; I have nothing against taking things easy but I'm not really sure what the message here is since they keep mentioning he likes to do things the hard way. I'm sure the actual message should be 'keep your eyes on the goal and look at different angles to win as much as possible' but it really came off as 'learn to take it easy' which isn't really something I think a King should be taking as a trial.
3. Abuse your power as king; to be fair, didn't a lot of people complain he was doing that? And didn't he order them to follow him in ep15 and there was still a lot of complaining? Didn't he basically say 'no, we're not surrendering' in episode 14 and yet people still surrendered? I'm not sure how this trial even helped.
4. Recognise your own fears; This was pretty much the only trial that I thought felt like an actual trial. He wasn't trying to beat Tygra so much as he was trying to get over his own feelings of inadequacy. None of the other trials had this.

I agree completely. About the season and the trials

1. Yeah, what is the lesson here? It should have been more of a 'look before you leap' lesson if they were trying to show what he did wrong at the beginning of the episode. Not trusting anything blindly, but investigating first.

2. I much preferred the Cheetara trial from the OS, since that one taught him about determination in the face of impossible odds whereas this one taught him... what exactly? Maybe 'keep your options open?' but they didn't elaborate on it well.

3. THIS. This trial annoyed me the most. The only way this trial makes any sense is if you take the lesson not as 'give orders' since like you say he does that all the time, but more as 'even if they complain, you make them shut up and do what you tell them.' But that is not what was shown. The problem has never been Lion-o forgetting he was king, the problem was always everyone ELSE acting like he's not the king. And a fair number of his orders are dumb, but if he's the king that should be irrelevant. It's not the subject's job to decide if the king's order is good.

4. Agree with this too. This one at least addressed a serious internal character flaw and growth lesson. The only problem I had with it is it's a flaw they've addressed multiple times and, seeing as how it wasn't solved, will likely address again. I get that this is a major character theme, but they need to be careful not to let it get repetitive.

[Singe]

The King thing seems like a different take on the whole friendship aspect. I will sacrifice myself to save my people. I will sacrifice myself to save my friends.

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

The King thing seems like a different take on the whole friendship aspect. I will sacrifice myself to save my people. I will sacrifice myself to save my friends.

Putting himself in danger for the sake of others is one of Lion-O's core personality traits and has been since the pilot. He'll do it for his people, his friends, or even complete strangers. It's almost a messianic concept.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

Putting himself in danger for the sake of others is one of Lion-O's core personality traits and has been since the pilot. He'll do it for his people, his friends, or even complete strangers. It's almost a messianic concept.

Yeah, if they carry this plot to its seemingly logical conclusion of him uniting the planet and acquiring the gems of absolute power and defeating the great evil then he's going to basically be somewhere between King Arthur and Jesus. Heck, he's even got the resurrection thing covered now.

[Eclipse]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

Putting himself in danger for the sake of others is one of Lion-O's core personality traits and has been since the pilot. He'll do it for his people, his friends, or even complete strangers. It's almost a messianic concept.

Which is why I think his behavior in Ep 14 was unbelievably OOC. Right then he'd do for his people, his friends, or even complete strangers, except Tygra.

[AdamofEternia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

That's the point Ive been trying to make for the last 4 months. It's unfair to judge someone based off of some idea you've had stored in your head for years. Sure we have our cultural norms, but who are we to judge someone when they don't fit into our boxes? This belief that women only show support when their romantically interested, is what leads to the problems like these. Saying stuff like, women only do this when they are this is a stereotype. It's unfair.

Relationships and the people in them come in all shapes and sizes.

For a romantic relationship to work, she cannot sit there and bow down to Lion-O's every wish. It's not something that's is going to, or should work. Yes Lion-O is a King, but the audience is not going to be susceptible to that kind of dynamic. Not in a romantic relationship. That would be uncomfortable to watch.
I would love to see Lion-O with someone who has no qualms about telling him no, or refusing him. Make him work for it, so to speak.

ever since cheetara got with tygra, she has been given her support to liono like she used to.

[Lunchie]

As strange as this sounds, after some contemplation, I kind of hope they keep this triangle thing going. Hear me out first because I know this sounds a little crazy.

It's kind of like "If you're going through hell, keep on going before the devil knows you're there". I feel that if everything was said, done, and over that it would leave us with the triangle being the most frustrating thing that has occurred in the show for us fans. Maybe....by keeping it going, they can attempt to repair the damage it's caused? Or hell, maybe it will become SO bad it passes infinity, loops back around and becomes something incredibly glorious. Kind of like YOR: hunter from the future.

Also, as a completely unrelated side note: If they DO have Pumyra with Lion-O, I am kind of hoping she'll be taller than him like Cheetara. I don't know why but ever since "Legacy" I am kind of digging the idea of couples where the woman is taller than the man. Or maybe I just thought Panthera was just that cool.

[Mako Crab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sining

2. Cheat AKA Go for the shortcut; I have nothing against taking things easy but I'm not really sure what the message here is since they keep mentioning he likes to do things the hard way. I'm sure the actual message should be 'keep your eyes on the goal and look at different angles to win as much as possible' but it really came off as 'learn to take it easy' which isn't really something I think a King should be taking as a trial.

Work smarter, not harder.

[Dr Kain]

So I watchied both Trials episodes this past weekend as my friends wanted to watch them. I have mixed feelings about them. They were good, but they felt rushed. This should have been at least a 3 parter, maybe even a 4 or 5 parter. The trials felt way too quick, the movement of events went too fast, and there seemed to be no real sense of danger with the characters. No one really acted the way they would have when they thought Lion-O died. Lion-O's death felt cheap without any actual consequences, The battle with Mumm-Ra was over way too quickly, which is the one thing this series has disappointed me on, the underuse of Mumm-Ra. There have been episodes without him even making an appearance. I don't expect him to fight all of the time, I rather like how they are doing it, but he feels more like an anime villian that just sits there in the shadows instead of doing anything himself. It wasn't bad, but it seems like these days 5 part story arcs are a rarity as if they think the audience is going to have ADD and not watch the rest of the arc. They need to realize that their audience watches/watched DBZ, and if you can watch that show religiously, you can handle a simple 5 part story.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunchie

Last note, I swear, I am done for the night.

A lot of People say they want Lion-O to get together with Pumyra to smooth over this triangle debacle. I am sorry but........no. The writer's show they can build it but they can not deliver. Also....it's Pumyra. She had the least amount of screen time of any of the new Thundercats is the OS. Props to the creators if they want to do something different but seriously she's second string Thundercat material. To do that I feel would....just not feel right. Like Max Payne, the Mark Wahlberg movie. They took a B-list goon from the game's story and made him the primary antagonist of the movie to space the overall story between two films (the second which better not happen EVER).
I also wouldn't feel it would be true to the OS, throwing a romance that was never there or intended, or really even popularized with the OG OS fans (Don't look at me like that. Producers and creators stated they WOULD have had a Lion-O/Cheetara romance in the OS if time/higher up would have allowed it)

If she's done right, more power to Pumyra. But if a backup romance plot line is what they honestly have in store for her....I am not looking forward to it at all.

Totally agree. I think pumyra is there to flesh out cheetara. I think she will make cheetara jealous. I think lion-o and pumyra will be good friends.

Pumyra is not going to join the group. This is about the cast hey have now.
It would be a insult to women. It would show her only role is a love interest.

[OmenBill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunchie

As strange as this sounds, after some contemplation, I kind of hope they keep this triangle thing going. Hear me out first because I know this sounds a little crazy.

It's kind of like "If you're going through hell, keep on going before the devil knows you're there". I feel that if everything was said, done, and over that it would leave us with the triangle being the most frustrating thing that has occurred in the show for us fans. Maybe....by keeping it going, they can attempt to repair the damage it's caused? Or hell, maybe it will become SO bad it passes infinity, loops back around and becomes something incredibly glorious. Kind of like YOR: hunter from the future.

Also, as a completely unrelated side note: If they DO have Pumyra with Lion-O, I am kind of hoping she'll be taller than him like Cheetara. I don't know why but ever since "Legacy" I am kind of digging the idea of couples where the woman is taller than the man. Or maybe I just thought Panthera was just that cool.

Doesn't sound strange I think it will. I find it funny that most people keep judging the L/C of it, but rarely talk about the T/C of it. I mean perhaps the writers wanted Cheetara to jump into a relationship so fast because that's how she is. I mean it relates to her back as a kid when she wanted to join the clerics, she lacked patience and jumped right into one of those swinging blades. Same here, she based her feelings on one gesture, and has fallen for someone she barely (based on what the series showed us she loves him because he gave her a flower) knows much about. Maybe it won't work out as well for the two of them as it did in the beginning. They may have something they disagree on, or have a major fight, which could lead to a troubled relationship. Kinda like those junior high kids saying they're "dating" then end by "breaking up" after two weeks because they realised they don't like each other that much like they did.

Course that's all my assumption, but if they have to continue this triangle it's the only good way I can see it continuing. Not a big fan of Lion-O just acting jealous, and T/C just acting "Cutesy" with each other, kind of a one sided triangle there.

Going back to what somebody said about the lessons of the trials, and how they don't really work I agree and it just goes back to that consistency problem. Lion-O learns a lesson, and he either forgets it to learn it again in a different ep, or already knew that lesson and was implementing it though the team would belly ache.

So if something happens in the next episode where there's some problem with whatever Lion-O does or forgets, and the series goes to it's second season status quo, I'll know the writers are pretty much like the writers of Lost, they don't know what to do with their characters, or their story.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

No offense, but I think you're missing my point. As I pointed out, a major factor in this triangle has been the writers repeated insistence that it IS a triangle. This is not a matter of viewers reading into scenes innocently. This is viewers looking for the romantic tension that we were TOLD REPEATEDLY was there. If you argue that there was no romance, the whole thing ceases to make sense. What were the writers talking about in your view?

That is why, like I said, it would have been better if the writers had never said anything, then your interpretation would have very little to argue against it.

Fair enough.

They said it was a important part of the story.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

The main purpose of Cheetara is for the triangle from the looks of everything (from tons of past interviews,data,etc,etc), otherwise she will be out of job So of course it will continue, if not in the next episode then it it will be in the other next episode and so on.
Jelenic said it himself a very important part of the story, albeit it's being written this bad.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

Agreed and EC said L/C relationship keeps evolving, that is what is happening.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Totally agree. I think pumyra is there to flesh out cheetara. I think she will make cheetara jealous. I think lion-o and pumyra will be good friends.

Pumyra is not going to join the group. This is about the cast hey have now.
It would be a insult to women. It would show her only role is a love interest.

Having the only two adult females in a group fighting over a male is good writing?