Thundercats Episode 14 New Alliances Discussion

[Mako Crab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KurtulanSama

Ok, I understand you are a Cheetara fan and you don't want to acknowledge her mistakes but what she did is beyond stupid.

I'm a fan of the whole show and all the characters, not just one or two. I just find it distasteful when people here on the forums start calling for Cheetara to be killed or excessively punished.

[SirSapphire]

Who is to say that Tygra and Cheetarah stay together though? We know that in "Trials" Tygra is forced to take leadership of the group and they decide to go after the sword, while Lion-O would probably have gone after their fallen comrade, just so he could be sure. Tygra is more hard-hearted than his brother and isn't as focused on the bigger picture as Lion-O is and he may end up being too hard on the other Thundercats or unable to take his failures in stride like Lion-O can (since he's won almost everything he wanted). He might not be able to handle criticism as well either since he was always told how wonderful he was. All of this could lead to him snapping at or taking his frustrations out on his teammates when they fail to live up to his expectations, which could damage his relationship with Cheetarah. I'm not saying it will happen or even that I want it to, it's just a possibility based on what we know about the characters and the teasing nature of the show's creators.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stac

But you see, the Tygra/Cheetara Defence League will spin it in such a way that it’s always Lion-O fault.

I agree with you. I really wish this ‘love triangle’ was done better, especially since it seems to play such an integral role in the plot. What bothers me is not T/C but rather how it was handled.

Incidentally, when Lion-O was knocked out by Slythe, at first I thought that Slythe actually killed or decapitated Lion-O because it looked like he hit him with the axe attached to his gun!

Yep their are some who will fight for Cheetara's RIGHT to abandon her duty, and doom herself and everyone else to certain death, all in the name " love". The writers should have gone with T/C in the first place if this was what they were going to write, and just made this show a straight forward action/adventure.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stac

But you see, the Tygra/Cheetara Defence League will spin it in such a way that it’s always Lion-O fault.

I agree with you. I really wish this ‘love triangle’ was done better, especially since it seems to play such an integral role in the plot. What bothers me is not T/C but rather how it was handled.

Incidentally, when Lion-O was knocked out by Slythe, at first I thought that Slythe actually killed or decapitated Lion-O because it looked like he hit him with the axe attached to his gun!

Agree. Most of those fans are tygra fans.

I agree, they should've done it earlier.

You notice how tygra came up with a plan to escape. I think tygra's heart was never into uniting the animals like his ancestor or reincarnation tygrus. I would think he would've been the master of his whip.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mako Crab

I'm a fan of the whole show and all the characters, not just one or two. I just find it distasteful when people here on the forums start calling for Cheetara to be killed or excessively punished.

Who said that?

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

Who is to say that Tygra and Cheetarah stay together though? We know that in "Trials" Tygra is forced to take leadership of the group and they decide to go after the sword, while Lion-O would probably have gone after their fallen comrade, just so he could be sure. Tygra is more hard-hearted than his brother and isn't as focused on the bigger picture as Lion-O is and he may end up being too hard on the other Thundercats or unable to take his failures in stride like Lion-O can (since he's won almost everything he wanted). He might not be able to handle criticism as well either since he was always told how wonderful he was. All of this could lead to him snapping at or taking his frustrations out on his teammates when they fail to live up to his expectations, which could damage his relationship with Cheetarah. I'm not saying it will happen or even that I want it to, it's just a possibility based on what we know about the characters and the teasing nature of the show's creators.

Great overview.

My question is, will tygra give up his title back to lion-o? Tygra's true jealousy is the crown.

Lion-o will have to save them from mummra.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Yep their are some who will fight for Cheetara's RIGHT to abandon her duty, and doom herself and everyone else to certain death, all in the name " love". The writers should have gone with T/C in the first place if this was what they were going to write, and just made this show a straight forward action/adventure.

I agree with this.

[Balgus82]

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Originally Posted by L08e16o

She is different. I don't don't care what people say. When lion-o was fighting the generals, he was saying stick together from what she said. I don't think he was thinking about cheetara choosing tygra. He thought cheetara had his back. She is a cleric, not his anymore.

Lion-O said "there's still two of us." Meaning he had already accepted that Tygra was done for. If he had thought Tygra would have found a way to get out of it he wouldn't have said that.

He might have said "we have to stick together" but if he was really doing it he wouldn't have written Tygra off like that. Sticking together doesn't mean you just let someone die.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Great overview.

My question is, will tygra give up his title back to lion-o? Tygra's true jealousy is the crown.

Lion-o will have to save them from mummra.

Tygra may not have a choice. The sword chose Lion-o, in Tygra's own words. It's not likely to allow him to keep it once Lion-o returns. It's doubtful that Tygra vs retain the crown, with Lion-o returning, and the Swords full power only responding to him.

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KurtulanSama

Ok, I understand you are a Cheetara fan and you don't want to acknowledge her mistakes but what she did is beyond stupid.

With surrendering, Tygra lost all his chance to escape. Remember; HE IS A FULLY TRAINED WARRIOR.

She gave up her weapon(which is a powerful one) to the enemy hands.

She distracted Lion-O(who has the war stone and the spirit stone).

And if panthro hasn't shown up, 3 cats would die a disgraceful(shameful and many things) deaths. For a warrior there is nothing worse than a death like this.(BECAUSE IT IS A COWARDS DEATH)



Lion-O's call was right as a soldier. He knew that enemy would never let them live long enough to think something to escape. He trusted his companions' ability to fihgt and survive but Cheetara gave up, pointing that tygra is weal and lion-o is not capable to buy thygra time for him to escape from his bonds. She proved that she has no confidence in her abilities either.

Speaking of Lion-O having the war stone and the spirit stone, why didn't he actually USE them during the fight? He could've beaten Slithe as fast as he beats Mumm-Ra if he had.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

Lion-O said "there's still two of us." Meaning he had already accepted that Tygra was done for. If he had thought Tygra would have found a way to get out of it he wouldn't have said that.

He might have said "we have to stick together" but if he was really doing it he wouldn't have written Tygra off like that. Sticking together doesn't mean you just let someone die.

They were going to die anyways.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

Lion-O said "there's still two of us." Meaning he had already accepted that Tygra was done for. If he had thought Tygra would have found a way to get out of it he wouldn't have said that.

He might have said "we have to stick together" but if he was really doing it he wouldn't have written Tygra off like that. Sticking together doesn't mean you just let someone die.

I took that to mean that Lion-o meant their was still 2 of them that were free to fight.

[L08e16o]

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Originally Posted by stormbringer

Tygra may not have a choice. The sword chose Lion-o, in Tygra's own words. It's not likely to allow him to keep it once Lion-o returns. It's doubtful that Tygra vs retain the crown, with Lion-o returning, and the Swords full power only responding to him.

I agree, but tygra doesn't have to give it to him. Tygra could say you got your self killed so you don't deserve to have the crown.

[L08e16o]

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Originally Posted by stormbringer

I took that to mean that Lion-o meant their was still 2 of them that were free to fight.

Agree.

Lion-o believes in tygra.

[stormbringer]

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Originally Posted by L08e16o

I agree, but tygra doesn't have to give it to him. Tygra could say you got your self killed so you don't deserve to have the crown.

Well since Lion-o is the one that has to save them, Tygra may not want say that.

[hollowdheart]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

I took that to mean that Lion-o meant their was still 2 of them that were free to fight.

And with Cheetara's new staff she should have been able to take at least 2 of them down on her own. She's a cleric, that's what she's trained to do. She's been fighting for as long as she's been a Cleric.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Well since Lion-o is the one that has to save them, Tygra may not want say that.

Who is to say mummra didn't offer tygra a position to rule over 3rd earth?

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

And which Cheetara's staff she should have been able to take at least 2 of them down on her own. She's a cleric, that's what she's trained to do.

Excellent point.

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

They were going to die anyways.

This has been exactly my point the whole time. They would've lost anyway. No matter what Cheetara did or didn't do they would've still lost. So all this talk about "tactical advantages" is irrelevant.

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Tygra may not have a choice. The sword chose Lion-o, in Tygra's own words. It's not likely to allow him to keep it once Lion-o returns. It's doubtful that Tygra vs retain the crown, with Lion-o returning, and the Swords full power only responding to him.

I have a theory that Tygra won't even be able to use the real Sword of Omens in the first place because he wasn't chosen and because Lion-O "never really died." Add in the theory that Lion-O would have gone back to look for him while Tygra went after the sword and there the impression that Tygra isn't "worthy" of the Sword of Omens and will have to choice but to return it to its true master, no matter how much he wants to keep it.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Who is to say mummra didn't offer tygra a position to rule over 3rd earth?

Now there's a plot twist. I'm sure Cheetara would have no problem being the evil queen.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

I have a theory that Tygra won't even be able to use the real Sword of Omens in the first place because he wasn't chosen and because Lion-O "never really died." Add in the theory that Lion-O would have gone back to look for him while Tygra went after the sword and there the impression that Tygra isn't "worthy" of the Sword of Omens and will have to choice but to return it to its true master, no matter how much he wants to keep it.

Another excellent post.

Do you think lion-o will fight tygra again? He is going to have to beat him at some point.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

And with Cheetara's new staff she should have been able to take at least 2 of them down on her own. She's a cleric, that's what she's trained to do. She's been fighting for as long as she's been a Cleric.

I think my jaw dropped when Cheetara dropped her staff. I thought for a second she was going to reveal she was working for Mumm-ra all along.

[hollowdheart]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

I have a theory that Tygra won't even be able to use the real Sword of Omens in the first place because he wasn't chosen and because Lion-O "never really died." Add in the theory that Lion-O would have gone back to look for him while Tygra went after the sword and there the impression that Tygra isn't "worthy" of the Sword of Omens and will have to choice but to return it to its true master, no matter how much he wants to keep it.

Lion-o's very much dead. Jaga says the stone's giving him another chance, so he has to battle his teammates to get to live.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Now there's a plot twist. I'm sure Cheetara would have no problem being the evil queen.

Well, mummra will be the priest to marry them in episode 16. Lion-o comes in with a even more shocked face and stops it.

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

I took that to mean that Lion-o meant their was still 2 of them that were free to fight.

That's not the way I took it. If they had kept fighting what then? Even if they had won Tygra would've been killed. Do you think for a second Kaynar would've hesitated to do it? And if they had lost they would all be dead anyway and Cheetara's decision wouldn't have mattered in the slightest.

As it stands If Cheetara hadn't stopped fighting Tygra would be dead right now. Why is that so difficult to understand?

[Ravenxl7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

This has been exactly my point the whole time. They would've lost anyway. No matter what Cheetara did or didn't do they would've still lost. So all this talk about "tactical advantages" is irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

That's not the way I took it. If they had kept fighting what then? Even if they had won Tygra would've been killed. Do you think for a second Kaynar would've hesitated to do it? And if they had lost they would all be dead anyway and Cheetara's decision wouldn't have mattered in the slightest.

As it stands If Cheetara hadn't stopped fighting Tygra would be dead right now. Why is that so difficult to understand?

Exactly, and Balgus82, I commend you for continuing to bring logic to this "discussion". I personally have given up. It's obvious that they aren't going to change their opinions, or truly listen to anything we might say. All it's doing now is giving them more reasons to continue to rant...

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

I have a theory that Tygra won't even be able to use the real Sword of Omens in the first place because he wasn't chosen and because Lion-O "never really died." Add in the theory that Lion-O would have gone back to look for him while Tygra went after the sword and there the impression that Tygra isn't "worthy" of the Sword of Omens and will have to choice but to return it to its true master, no matter how much he wants to keep it.

Good theory. I wonder if this would make Tygra more respectful towards Lion-o, or cause more resentment?

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

That's not the way I took it. If they had kept fighting what then? Even if they had won Tygra would've been killed. Do you think for a second Kaynar would've hesitated to do it? And if they had lost they would all be dead anyway and Cheetara's decision wouldn't have mattered in the slightest.

As it stands If Cheetara hadn't stopped fighting Tygra would be dead right now. Why is that so difficult to understand?

Well tygra got the upper hand on the three of them in episode 15. They were all captured too.

[Balgus82]

Ya'll really shouldn't be shouting out episode 15 spoilers in an episode 14 thread btw.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Well, mummra will be the priest to marry them in episode 16. Lion-o comes in with a even more shocked face and stops it.

Mumm-ra: "Now their journey to the darkside is complete".
Lion-o: "Not so fast Mumm-ra! Sword of Omens, come to my hand!"

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Another excellent post.

Do you think lion-o will fight tygra again? He is going to have to beat him at some point.

In the second half of the Trials Lion-O will be forced to face his own self-doubt with takes the form of Tygra (although it may morph into his father at some point). Lion-O has spent much of his life being told he's not good enough and that his interests are wrong and he has to prove them wrong. Unlike the other trials with required cunning and could have "work around" solutions this will be the one he has to face head-on and the old-fashioned way. He must defeat his brother and his doubt and prove why the Sword chose him.

He'll come out of it a better person and won't have to defeat the real-life Tygra because upon his return his brother will have gone through his own trials and learned why Lion-O was chosen and the two brothers will finally begin supporting one another.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

Ya'll really shouldn't be shouting out episode 15 spoilers in an episode 14 thread btw.

Sorry.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

In the second half of the Trials Lion-O will be forced to face his own self-doubt with takes the form of Tygra (although it may morph into his father at some point). Lion-O has spent much of his life being told he's not good enough and that his interests are wrong and he has to prove them wrong. Unlike the other trials with required cunning and could have "work around" solutions this will be the one he has to face head-on and the old-fashioned way. He must defeat his brother and his doubt and prove why the Sword chose him.

He'll come out of it a better person and won't have to defeat the real-life Tygra because upon his return his brother will have gone through his own trials and learned why Lion-O was chose and the two brothers will finally begin supporting one another.

I think it will morph into his father too.

On book 1 season 2, they have Claudus VA actor's name on it. So I am guessing he is going to be in episode 16.

It is up to tygra. Will he give him the respect he thinks lion-o deserves.

You have some good insight on the episodes. Off topic question on episode 17, you think we will finally learn about tygra's past?

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

In the second half of the Trials Lion-O will be forced to face his own self-doubt with takes the form of Tygra (although it may morph into his father at some point). Lion-O has spent much of his life being told he's not good enough and that his interests are wrong and he has to prove them wrong. Unlike the other trials with required cunning and could have "work around" solutions this will be the one he has to face head-on and the old-fashioned way. He must defeat his brother and his doubt and prove why the Sword chose him.

He'll come out of it a better person and won't have to defeat the real-life Tygra because upon his return his brother will have gone through his own trials and learned why Lion-O was chosen and the two brothers will finally begin supporting one another.

That would be good to see. They have to work out their issues at some point, if this situation doesn't do it , nothing will.

[Balgus82]

I'll try to explain why I support Cheetara's decision the best I can right now.

They were basically given two options. Surrender and Tygra lives, or keep fighting and Tygra dies. One option was an absolute outcome. If they kept fighting Tygra would die.
But If they surrendered they might've been taken prisoner. There really wasn't any way for her to know for an absolute certainty that Slithe would call for them all to be killed anyway.

So she basically had a choice between an outcome that was certain and an outcome that might or might not work in her favor.

So she gambled on the uncertain outcome (where they could've been simply held prisoner) instead of the certain outcome (where Tygra would've definitely died).

And honestly, how do you know that Slithe didn't make his decision to kill them anyway because Lion-O wanted to keep fighting?

[stac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

This has been exactly my point the whole time. They would've lost anyway. No matter what Cheetara did or didn't do they would've still lost. So all this talk about "tactical advantages" is irrelevant.

Sorry but no it isn’t.

We know for a fact that once Cheetara surrendered, they would all be executed. However, what would have happened if she had helped Lion-O continue the fight would be speculation – they may or may not have survived.
The point is surrender would have led to a guaranteed and instant death for all three. The only wise tactical move was to continue the fight as it was the only option with a possible positive outcome, which Lion-O got correct.

Battle strategies are often utilitarian – “the maximum good for the maximum number.” Cheetara would have gotten them all killed. Lion-O decision was the best one he could make in a no-win situation.

Why is this so hard to understand? It’s just logic and math. Do I need to analyse this using Game Theory?

Cheetara’s action was nothing more than a symbolic gesture to show her undying devotion to her new boyfriend.

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

I think it will morph into his father too.

On book 1 season 2, they have Claudus VA actor's name on it. So I am guessing he is going to be in episode 16.

It is up to tygra. Will he give him the respect he thinks lion-o deserves.

You have some good insight on the episodes. Off topic question on episode 17, you think we will finally learn about tygra's past?

Probably the ceremony in which Lion-O was chosen over him as the next king. This is why he's dressed as a guard in "Between Brothers," He was trying to prove himself better than Lion-O and thus more worthy of the throne.

As for some "dark secret" I don't think there really is one.

[KurtulanSama]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

Speaking of Lion-O having the war stone and the spirit stone, why didn't he actually USE them during the fight? He could've beaten Slithe as fast as he beats Mumm-Ra if he had.

I don't get that either. Ok, I know they have to lose because thet need to show that Cheetara gives up too damn fast but boy, spirit stone can stop the lizard tank's turret fire, an axe swung by slithe would be no problem.

[theking]

Kinda funny on how the original voice actor of Lion-O now plays his father Claudus.
Looking forward to episode 15, I want a break from all the I love you but I hate you at the same time for betraying me (Lion-O and Cheetara), and the all my life I proved I was better than you, why was I not chosen (Tygra) drama that the writers seem to have carved into stone.

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stac

Sorry but no it isn’t.

We know for a fact that once Cheetara surrendered, they would all be executed. However, what would have happened if she had helped Lion-O continue the fight would be speculation – they may or may not have survived.
The point is surrender would have led to a guaranteed and instant death for all three. The only wise tactical move was to continue the fight as it was the only option with a possible positive outcome, which Lion-O got correct.

Battle strategies are often utilitarian – “the maximum good for the maximum number.” Cheetara would have gotten them all killed. Lion-O decision was the best one he could make in a no-win situation.

Why is this so hard to understand? It’s just logic and math. Do I need to analyse this using Game Theory?

Cheetara’s action was nothing more than a symbolic gesture to show her undying devotion to her new boyfriend.

They weren't guaranteed death for surrendering. We only know that they would've been killed after the fact. They said surrender or he dies which implies that if they surrender he would live. hindsight might be 20/20 but she didn't make her decision with the knowledge that they would try to kill them all anyway.

[hollowdheart]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KurtulanSama

I don't get that either. Ok, I know they have to lose because thet need to show that Cheetara gives up too damn fast but boy, spirit stone can stop the lizard tank's turret fire, an axe swung by slithe would be no problem.

The stones/Lion-o's power level only works the way the writer wants it to.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

The stones/Lion-o's power level only works the way the writer wants it to.

Yep, logic is not these writers strong suit.

[stac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

I'll try to explain why I support Cheetara's decision the best I can right now.

They were basically given two options. Surrender and Tygra lives, or keep fighting and Tygra dies. One option was an absolute outcome. If they kept fighting Tygra would die.
But If they surrendered they might've been taken prisoner. There really wasn't any way for her to know for an absolute certainty that Slithe would call for them all to be killed anyway.

We do not know for a fact that Kaynar would have killed Tygra, even though it may have been very likely.

Cheetara did surrender and Lion-O was knocked out. They could have been taken prisoner then but were not. They were to be executed immediately.

Quote:

So she basically had a choice between an outcome that was certain and an outcome that might or might not work in her favor.

Even if we assume that Tygra's death was certain, her surrender did nothing to delay or prevent it!

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So she gambled on the uncertain outcome (where they could've been simply held prisoner) instead of the certain outcome (where Tygra would've definitely died).

And honestly, how do you know that Slithe didn't make his decision to kill them anyway because Lion-O wanted to keep fighting?

Slythe has constantly made his desire to kill the ThunderCats well known, for example, in the Song of the Petalars. Moreover, why did he bring in the new Generals?

Either way, what Slythe might have done is speculation.

There is too much speculation for your argument to work. Deal only with the information you know for certain.

[KurtulanSama]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

They weren't guaranteed death for surrendering. We only know that they would've been killed after the fact. They said surrender or he dies which implies that if they surrender he would live. hindsight might be 20/20 but she didn't make her decision with the knowledge that they would try to kill them all anyway.

"Surrender or he dies." this doesn't imply that they would let him live. This only means that these guys will keep tygra alive until cats decide.

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stac

We do not know for a fact that Kaynar would have killed Tygra, even though it may have been very likely.

Cheetara did surrender and Lion-O was knocked out. They could have been taken prisoner then but were not. They were to be executed immediately.




Even if we assume that Tygra's death was certain, her surrender did nothing to delay or prevent it!



Slythe has constantly made his desire to kill the ThunderCats well known, for example, in the Song of the Petalars. Moreover, why did he bring in the new Generals?

Either way, what Slythe might have done is speculation.

There is too much speculation for your argument to work. Deal only with the information you know for certain.

Your argument that they would've all died anyway only holds credit with the knowledge that came after she had already made her decision.

You have to think of what she knew when she made the decision. She didn't know they would all be killed anyway. They were given the choice to either surrender or let Tygra die, so she surrendered.

Slithe certainly never said "Surrender and you'll all die."

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KurtulanSama

"Surrender or he dies." this doesn't imply that they would let him live. This only means that these guys will keep tygra alive until cats decide.

I completely disagree with that. "Surrender or he dies." Meaning he dies if you don't surrender. So logic dictates that the reverse should be true as well. If you surrender he won't die.

[KurtulanSama]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

Your argument that they would've all died anyway only holds credit with the knowledge that came after she had already made her decision.

You have to think of what she knew when she made the decision. She didn't know they would all be killed anyway. They were given the choice to either surrender or let Tygra die, so she surrendered.

Slithe certainly never said "Surrender and you'll all die."

This is actually knowing about the enemy. In this kind of situation you act based on your information. If you don't have any, act on the worst possible outcome.

The only info they had about the enemy that Slithe wanted them dead. I would play on that. The only cat that could leave as a prisoner was cheetara(to lift the guarding magic on sword). Presuming otherwise is naivity.

Edit: You think with an honest person's mind. Twist your logic. This was something they did to make cats surrender. Can you think of any reason why they should let cats live? I will accept any logical reasoning.

[L08e16o]

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Originally Posted by SirSapphire

Probably the ceremony in which Lion-O was chosen over him as the next king. This is why he's dressed as a guard in "Between Brothers," He was trying to prove himself better than Lion-O and thus more worthy of the throne.

As for some "dark secret" I don't think there really is one.

Sorry, I meant do you think we will find out about his past like he is the native son?

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

The stones/Lion-o's power level only works the way the writer wants it to.

So true!!