Thundercats Ep 16 Trials of Lion-O Pt 2 Discussion

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

I know, I was being facetious. Also, they may have used the large break to look at fan reactions and think about where they were going.

I see. Or it's just another one of those CN's "odd" cartoon scheduling, since the entire next 13 Eps were "ready" back then before the break.
_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[SirSapphire]

The problem is far to many people use "bad writing" as a catch-all argument for when the show doesn't conform to their personal desires because it's often very subjective. They can just say that and it absolves them of having to listen to other people or try and explain their own position.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

The problem is far to many people use "bad writing" as a catch-all argument for when the show doesn't conform to their personal desires because it's often very subjective. They can just say that and it absolves them of having to listen to other people or try and explain their own position.

You are certainly correct, but you also have to know when to stop trying to 'explain' something and just accept that it's poorly done. You can sit and try to explain stuff forever, but there DOES come a point when something is just bad. And if you have to sit and figure out an explanation forever, it's because it wasn't very clear to begin with.

And I would argue in this case, when there is a fairly strong consensus that things such as the triangle, the random, inconsistent depiction of EVERYONE's powers in fights, Lion-o's ability to learn, forget, and re-learn all of his life lessons, and the overall pathetic performance of the various villains are poorly done, it is not simply a matter of not 'getting' it or something, but is in fact bad.

Now, I still like this show a lot, but it NEEDS to develop some consistency, and that onus is squarely on the writers.

[CreepySariFan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

You are certainly correct, but you also have to know when to stop trying to 'explain' something and just accept that it's poorly done. You can sit and try to explain stuff forever, but there DOES come a point when something is just bad. And if you have to sit and figure out an explanation forever, it's because it wasn't very clear to begin with.

That describes cartoons like Voltron Force, not NS ThunderCats.

I don't think you guys have WATCHED a bad cartoon in awhile. I may have only given Avatar 5 episodes to get my interest before I got bored, but I gave Voltron 13 goddamn episodes in hopes it might get better.

When the kid with the speed powers can't catch the robot with the bomb that's going to destroy the entire Castle of Lions, and they have to rely on magic fuckin' bricks, then, THEN there's something wrong with the writting staff.

I'll say it again, ThunderCats writting is equivalent of TFA's early seasons. I still love that series, my friends still love that series. My only thought on how people can justify trashing this show is you've all gone completely crazy with inflated expectations.

[cmangund]

A good writing will not require the readers or the viewers to do some "heavy extra analysis" of the writings itself. The fact that many of us having to "figure it out" ourselves on "what the heck happened with the characterization of the characters and story" is proof enough that no matter how you are going to view this show with "shippy eyes" or not, the so called "bad writing" existed. Of course the "level of assness" of the show will vary from individuals to individuals, they can view the show as either "badass", badass, "dumbass" or "something in between the ass".

Because we are humans and not the Geth from Mass Effect, heck even the Geth develop some personalities near the end of Mass Effect 3.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreepySariFan

That describes cartoons like Voltron Force, not NS ThunderCats.

I don't think you guys have WATCHED a bad cartoon in awhile. I may have only given Avatar 5 episodes to get my interest before I got bored, but I gave Voltron 13 goddamn episodes in hopes it might get better.

When the kid with the speed powers can't catch the robot with the bomb that's going to destroy the entire Castle of Lions, and they have to rely on magic fuckin' bricks, then, THEN there's something wrong with the writting staff.

I'll say it again, ThunderCats writting is equivalent of TFA's early seasons. I still love that series, my friends still love that series. My only thought on how people can justify trashing this show is you've all gone completely crazy with inflated expectations.

Yes, EVERYONE has gone crazy except for you.

[CreepySariFan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

Yes, EVERYONE has gone crazy except for you.

When there are enough people divided on Disney's John Carter; when the only derogatory remarks are essentially the inflated budget, I have to wonder WTF is wrong with the state and opinion of pop-culture as we know it.

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

A good writing will not require the readers or the viewers to do some "heavy extra analysis" of the writings itself. The fact that many of us having to "figure it out" ourselves on "what the heck happened with the characterization of the characters and story" is proof enough that no matter how you are going to view this show with "shippy eyes" or not, the so called "bad writing" existed. Of course the "level of assness" of the show will vary from individuals to individuals, they can view the show as either "badass", badass, or "dumbass".

Because we are humans and not the Geth from Mass Effect, heck even the Geth develop some personalities near the end of Mass Effect 3.

Yes, but if there's one thing fans love it's picking apart every goddamn thing the show puts on their plate and looking for connections and explanations that may or may not be there.

That, and complaining.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreepySariFan

That describes cartoons like Voltron Force, not NS ThunderCats.

I don't think you guys have WATCHED a bad cartoon in awhile. I may have only given Avatar 5 episodes to get my interest before I got bored, but I gave Voltron 13 goddamn episodes in hopes it might get better.

When the kid with the speed powers can't catch the robot with the bomb that's going to destroy the entire Castle of Lions, and they have to rely on magic fuckin' bricks, then, THEN there's something wrong with the writting staff.

I'll say it again, ThunderCats writting is equivalent of TFA's early seasons. I still love that series, my friends still love that series. My only thought on how people can justify trashing this show is you've all gone completely crazy with inflated expectations.

We don't have inflated expectations, we just want the show to actually make sense.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

A good writing will not require the readers or the viewers to do some "heavy extra analysis" of the writings itself. The fact that many of us having to "figure it out" ourselves on "what the heck happened with the characterization of the characters and story" is proof enough that no matter how you are going to view this show with "shippy eyes" or not, the so called "bad writing" existed. Of course the "level of assness" of the show will vary from individuals to individuals, they can view the show as either "badass", badass, or "dumbass".

Because we are humans and not the Geth from Mass Effect, heck even the Geth develop some personalities near the end of Mass Effect 3.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

Exactly. While some can argue that truly good writing asks for something from the viewers, and makes them want to dig deeper in order to understand it, that is NOT what we are doing here. We are not looking for some kernel of hidden meaning, we are attempting to figure out what the HELL just happened, because at face value a lot of it doesn't make sense.

Cheetara liked Tygra all along? What?
Hasn't Lion-o learned patience like three times?
Why doesn't Lion-o use his grappling hook to save himself when he's falling from the cliff?
Why do Panthro's stretch arms just get forgotten half the time?
Couldn't Cheetara solve half the fights just by using her super-speed instead of forgetting it?
Why does Lion-o almost never use SBS?
And on and on and on.

This show is LITTERED with plot and character inconsistencies. And that sucks. Because we ALL want this show to be good. We're on a website called 'thundercats' you can bet we wish this show was amazing. We take no joy in being confused and frustrated by it.

[CreepySariFan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

Yes, but if there's one thing fans love it's picking apart every goddamn thing the show puts on their plate and looking for connections and explanations that may or may not be there.

That, and complaining.

I seriously can't wait until all the Avatar fans get a faceful of Korra never learning her lessons from Tenzin, and all their arguement time eating up air time. All the plot progression has already been made in the trailers alone.

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreepySariFan

I seriously can't wait until all the Avatar fans get a faceful of Korra never learning her lessons from Tenzin, and all their arguement time eating up air time. All the plot progression has already been made in the trailers alone.

I have yet to see a single episode of The Last Airbender, and I take a perverse glee in, upon being explained for the umpteenth time what a fantastic show it is and how no other animation can hope to stand up, responding with "Yeah, so?"

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

Yes, but if there's one thing fans love it's picking apart every goddamn thing the show puts on their plate and looking for connections and explanations that may or may not be there.

That, and complaining.

True, but people often like to forget that fans also like to LIKE things. It's just there's a very fine difference between love and hate with most fans. Ignoring when fans make legitimate complaints because 'fans just like to complain' is just as dumb as accepting all the compliments to something that fans DO like (like Avatar for example) at face value.

Fans represent a kind of mob mentality, this is true, but like any mob they are usually based on a fundamental truth. If a mob hates something, then there are serious problems with it; maybe not as bad as the mob says, but problems nonetheless. If a mob likes something, then it is probably pretty good; maybe not as good as they say since they're feeding each other, but good nonetheless.

[CreepySariFan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

Cheetara liked Tygra all along? What?

Have you even BEEN in a relationship? Women are COMPLICATED.

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Hasn't Lion-o learned patience like three times?

Hypocrisy, man, it happens. Especially when you're young, feel like the entire world is against you, under pressure, and whatever else is going on in Lion-O's life.

Quote:

Why doesn't Lion-o use his grappling hook to save himself when he's falling from the cliff?

All right here, man

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Why do Panthro's stretch arms just get forgotten half the time?

We'll chop off your arms and stick some prosthetics on them and see how quickly you're efficient with them.

Quote:

Couldn't Cheetara solve half the fights just by using her super-speed instead of forgetting it?

She's just as efficient with is it as the OS.

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Why does Lion-o almost never use SBS?
And on and on and on.

He never used it to locate the Spirit Stone either. Not until it wasn't "exactly" where the Book of Omens said it would be.

Quote:

This show is LITTERED with plot and character inconsistencies. And that sucks. Because we ALL want this show to be good. We're on a website called 'thundercats' you can bet we wish this show was amazing. We take no joy in being confused and frustrated by it.

Man, I didn't have any trouble with that, and I'm still enjoying the fuck out of NS ThunderCats.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreepySariFan

I seriously can't wait until all the Avatar fans get a faceful of Korra never learning her lessons from Tenzin, and all their arguement time eating up air time. All the plot progression has already been made in the trailers alone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

I have yet to see a single episode of The Last Airbender, and I take a perverse glee in, upon being explained for the umpteenth time what a fantastic show it is and how no other animation can hope to stand up, responding with "Yeah, so?"

Okay, now you two are just acting like jerks. You're welcome to dislike something others like, but if you're dicks about it, your opinions pretty quickly cease to matter.

And to SariFan: No one is mad when Lion-o doesn't learn his lessons. They're mad because Lion-o DOES learn his lessons, and then FORGETS them the next episode. If they just showed him refusing to learn (like they actually DID do with the Tygra trial, so that one cannot be included in this) then THAT would be consistent, and people would be far less bothered.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreepySariFan

Have you even BEEN in a relationship? Women are COMPLICATED.



Hypocrisy, man, it happens. Especially when you're young, feel like the entire world is against you, under pressure, and whatever else is going on in Lion-O's life.



All right here, man



We'll chop off your arms and stick some prosthetics on them and see how quickly you're efficient with them.



She's just as efficient with is as the OS.



He never used it to locate the Spirit Stone either. Not until it wasn't "exactly" where the Book of Omens said it would be.



Man, I didn't have any trouble with that, and I'm still enjoying the fuck out of NS ThunderCats.

First off, those were rhetorical, not meant to be answered.

Secondly, all of your answers are EXACTLY what I'm talking about. You're putting words in the writer's mouths that should have just been shown if the story was well done. And they're not even very good words. Nearly all of your answers are 'crap happens.' It's complicated, people are hypocritical, the OS was just as bad, it's new, he forgot that other time too, etc.

THESE are your defenses? Seriously?

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

Okay, now you two are just acting like jerks. You're welcome to dislike something others like, but if you're dicks about it, your opinions pretty quickly cease to matter.

I never said I dislike the show. It is entirely possible to have no opinion on something and no desire to partake it in it. When someone insists that you have to watch something just because they like it they're being jerks. I have admitted that I do enjoy screwing with Avatar fans just a little bit but it's nothing personal and usually because they insist on "enlightening" me and pulling me into their little circle.

[CreepySariFan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

Okay, now you two are just acting like jerks. You're welcome to dislike something others like, but if you're dicks about it, your opinions pretty quickly cease to matter.

Avatar fans have been jerks for a LONG time before we started standing up for ourselves. You gotta deal with it!

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And to SariFan: No one is mad when Lion-o doesn't learn his lessons. They're mad because Lion-o DOES learn his lessons, and then FORGETS them the next episode. If they just showed him refusing to learn (like they actually DID do with the Tygra trial) then THAT would be consistent, and people would be far less bothered.

Aesop Amnesia - Television Tropes & Idioms

Look at that list in Western Animation, MAN, writting for every cartoon EVER must SUCK!

[CreepySariFan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

THESE are your defenses? Seriously?

And they absolutely bug the shit out of you, I love it.

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreepySariFan

And they absolutely bug the shit out of you, I love it.

It's because they make sense.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

We don't have inflated expectations, we just want the show to actually make sense.

Exactly. Unfortunately the show already made "Perfect Jelenic's Senses"

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreepySariFan

Avatar fans have been jerks for a LONG time before we started standing up for ourselves. You gotta deal with it!



Aesop Amnesia - Television Tropes & Idioms

Look at that list in Western Animation, MAN, writting for every cartoon EVER must SUCK!

Did you actually read those examples? Because the vast majority of them are for comedies like South Park, the Simpsons, and so on. Comedy cartoons have NO PLOT, and do not progress in time. The characters do not change. The point of learning a lesson on a show with no plot or progression is for the viewers, not the characters. In a show with plot, the idea is for the characters to grow.

and the two or three non-comedy examples they had were: THundercats (not helping your point), J. Jonah Jameson, who has a long history of refusing to learn his lesson about spider-man no matter how many times it happens, and Ben 10, which presumably is just another case of bad writing.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreepySariFan

And they absolutely bug the shit out of you, I love it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

It's because they make sense.

No they don't bug me, they just make me wonder where your head's at. Your defenses all are basically 'stuff doesn't make sense, so don't try to make it make sense' which is one of the worst defenses I've ever seen. Your DEFENSES are largely the same as the complaints that people are making against it.

And that grappling hook picture is dumb for two reasons: first, the cats are superhuman, they are repeatedly shown surviving events that would kill a human or just doing things that means they're stronger than we are.

Secondly, and this is key. If you're falling to your death and you've got a rocket propelled grappling hook then you've got two options. One, continue to fall which WILL kill you, and two, use the hook, which MIGHT kill you. What are you going to do?

To SirSapphire: No they don't.

[CreepySariFan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

Did you actually read those examples? Because the vast majority of them are for comedies like South Park, the Simpsons, and so on. Comedy cartoons have NO PLOT, and do not progress in time. The characters do not change. The point of learning a lesson on a show with no plot or progression is for the viewers, not the characters. In a show with plot, the idea is for the characters to grow.

and the two or three non-comedy examples they had were: THundercats (not helping your point), J. Jonah Jameson, who has a long history of refusing to learn his lesson about spider-man no matter how many times it happens, and Ben 10, which presumably is just another case of bad writing.

You know what it comes down to then? What else in this nook of merchandise driven science-fantasy adventure are you going to watch that's better?

[CreepySariFan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

No they don't bug me, they just make me wonder where your head's at. Your defenses all are basically 'stuff doesn't make sense, so don't try to make it make sense' which is one of the worst defenses I've ever seen. Your DEFENSES are largely the same as the complaints that people are making against it.

It makes enough sense to me, I find myself wondering why you're pissing your personal time and enjoyment of the show away by doing this. I'm enjoying the fact I can make you do so, however.

Quote:

And that grappling hook picture is dumb for two reasons: first, the cats are superhuman, they are repeatedly shown surviving events that would kill a human or just doing things that means they're stronger than we are.

Secondly, and this is key. If you're falling to your death and you've got a rocket propelled grappling hook then you've got two options. One, continue to fall which WILL kill you, and two, use the hook, which MIGHT kill you. What are you going to do?

Survive the fall into the apparently soft-water, which Lion-O did. Too bad for him the rocks were on top of him, the only reason he drowned in the first place. Man, you're not paying very good attention.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreepySariFan

You know what it comes down to then? What else in this nook of merchandise driven science-fantasy adventure are you going to watch that's better?

To this I have two answers:

First, very soon I will watch Legend of Korra, which has a very good chance of being better, and Young Justice, which fluctuates. Thundercats is not alone in it's niche, it can be beat by the competition, and that is why it needs to be at the top of its game.

Second, hopefully nothing. I LIKE the thundercats, I want it to be GOOD. I want villains that are believable, and heroes that are consistent, and a show that is well done. If this show IS cancelled, I will not be happy about it, even if I understand why it happens.

[CreepySariFan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

To this I have two answers:

First, very soon I will watch Legend of Korra, which has a very good chance of being better, and Young Justice, which fluctuates. Thundercats is not alone in it's niche, it can be beat by the competition, and that is why it needs to be at the top of its game.

People still rip apart Young Justice as much as ThunderCats. I still love the crap out of YJ.

As for Korra, we'll see. Don't get your hopes up.

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Second, hopefully nothing. I LIKE the thundercats, I want it to be GOOD. I want villains that are believable, and heroes that are consistent, and a show that is well done. If this show IS cancelled, I will not be happy about it, even if I understand why it happens.

I would love the show to be even better than it already is, and I'd love to see it not be canned. At least I can agree with you here.

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

Did you actually read those examples? Because the vast majority of them are for comedies like South Park, the Simpsons, and so on. Comedy cartoons have NO PLOT, and do not progress in time. The characters do not change. The point of learning a lesson on a show with no plot or progression is for the viewers, not the characters. In a show with plot, the idea is for the characters to grow.

and the two or three non-comedy examples they had were: THundercats (not helping your point), J. Jonah Jameson, who has a long history of refusing to learn his lesson about spider-man no matter how many times it happens, and Ben 10, which presumably is just another case of bad writing.

Yeah, let's just ignore everything else in that list which includes shows often praised for their writing like Teen Titans and Transformer Animated, or even every other show listed there outside of animation. Thundercats is terrible and should never see the light of day.

Look, I'm not arguing that the show doesn't have its problems because it does but the show is still just starting out. We're still in the first season as it was plotted by the producers, there's still a lot to learn and a lot of ground to cover. Sometimes you really need to give them the benefit of the doubt and remind yourself it's just a tv show and relax.

I enjoy debating about the show as much as the next guy, but it's still just a show.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreepySariFan

It makes enough sense to me, I find myself wondering why you're pissing your personal time and enjoyment of the show away by doing this. I'm enjoying the fact I can make you do so, however.



Survive the fall into the apparently soft-water, which Lion-O did. Too bad for him the rocks were on top of him, the only reason he drowned in the first place. Man, you're not paying very good attention.

I like how as your logic falls apart, you just fall back on being a troll. I started this argument having no real disrespect for you, we just disagreed. Whatever, that's what the internet is for, but the more you get pushed the more you just start sounding like a petulant child and falling back on insults.

Secondly, if you hit water at terminal velocity, it is NOT soft, apparently or otherwise. If you're arguing that the impact on the water didn't kill him, then hitting the cliff face after a shorter fall would not have killed him either, and would have had the added benefit of not causing him to drown. Win win.

[stac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreepySariFan

Have you even BEEN in a relationship? Women are COMPLICATED.

Women are complicated? This is such a stereotypical view. That’s your justification for such poor handling of the “love” triangle?

Quote:

Hypocrisy, man, it happens. Especially when you're young, feel like the entire world is against you, under pressure, and whatever else is going on in Lion-O's life.

Lion-O has been “learning” lessons since the fall of Thundera, which he then conveniently “forgets” when the writers want to further the plot.
Instead of rationalising the motivations of fictional characters, why don’t you focus on the real problem – huge inconsistencies on the part of the writers in handling characterisation?

Quote:

All right here, man

This is somewhat acceptable.

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We'll chop off your arms and stick some prosthetics on them and see how quickly you're efficient with them.

His prosthetic arms had been fixed by the end of episode 14, where he managed to knock out Slithe, Kaynar and Addicus in less than 5 seconds. The writers made him so powerful that they don’t seem to know what to do with him anymore, for example, the ambush at the top of the cliff in episode 15.

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She's just as efficient with is it as the OS.

Cheetara like most other characters conveniently forgets her abilities when it suits the plot.

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He never used it to locate the Spirit Stone either. Not until it wasn't "exactly" where the Book of Omens said it would be.

The point is that the writers seem to be ignoring SBS.

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Man, I didn't have any trouble with that, and I'm still enjoying the fuck out of NS ThunderCats.

So basically you are more willing than others to let writers off the hook for inconsistent writing and poor characterisation?

[CreepySariFan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

I like how as your logic falls apart, you just fall back on being a troll. I started this argument having no real disrespect for you, we just disagreed. Whatever, that's what the internet is for, but the more you get pushed the more you just start sounding like a petulant child and falling back on insults.

I'm just trying to push the fact that if you have that much level of care for the show, that you need to pull apart that much, then you'll never enjoy anything you love.

I won't argue the show didn't make mistakes, but all shows make mistakes.

I'm happy with this show. I'm so happy that it didn't become ThunderCats the rock band.

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Secondly, if you hit water at terminal velocity, it is NOT soft, apparently or otherwise. If you're arguing that the impact on the water didn't kill him, then hitting the cliff face after a shorter fall would not have killed him either, and would have had the added benefit of not causing him to drown. Win win.

A mistake made by many writters. I'd link to TVTropes again, but really, we're just dancing in circles.

You know I won't give up on not-caring about the little things, and making my own justifications on how they can make sense. I doubt you'll give up on saying I'm crazy for doing so.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

Yeah, let's just ignore everything else in that list which includes shows often praised for their writing like Teen Titans and Transformer Animated, or even every other show listed there outside of animation. Thundercats is terrible and should never see the light of day.

Look, I'm not arguing that the show doesn't have its problems because it does but the show is still just starting out. We're still in the first season as it was plotted by the producers, there's still a lot to learn and a lot of ground to cover. Sometimes you really need to give them the benefit of the doubt and remind yourself it's just a tv show and relax.

I enjoy debating about the show as much as the next guy, but it's still just a show.

Bad writing is bad writing even on a good show like Teen Titans, I'm sorry I left it out of my examples. However, they also mention that other than Cyborg and Beast Boy, Teen Titans was actually pretty GOOD about this. As for the other shows, I just looked at Western Animation since that's what he pointed out.

I never said it's terrible, I said it's inconsistent. And while you have a point about relaxing, I would say we're all a step beyond that, since if we really wanted to just leave it be, we wouldn't be on a message board. And I hope it improves, but it's got some serious ground to cover; though this episode was a step in the right direction.

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

Bad writing is bad writing even on a good show like Teen Titans, I'm sorry I left it out of my examples. However, they also mention that other than Cyborg and Beast Boy, Teen Titans was actually pretty GOOD about this. As for the other shows, I just looked at Western Animation since that's what he pointed out.

I never said it's terrible, I said it's inconsistent. And while you have a point about relaxing, I would say we're all a step beyond that, since if we really wanted to just leave it be, we wouldn't be on a message board. And I hope it improves, but it's got some serious ground to cover; though this episode was a step in the right direction.

Right, but I'm not on here every week consistently arguing against the show and and shooting down possible explanations for why certain things are the way they are with tautology like "bad writing is bad writing."

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stac

Women are complicated? This is such a stereotypical view. That’s your justification for such poor handling of the “love” triangle?



Lion-O has been “learning” lessons since the fall of Thundera, which he then conveniently “forgets” when the writers want to further the plot.
Instead of rationalising the motivations of fictional characters, why don’t you focus on the real problem – huge inconsistencies on the part of the writers in handling characterisation?



This is somewhat acceptable.



His prosthetic arms had been fixed by the end of episode 14, where he managed to knock out Slithe, Kaynar and Addicus in less than 5 seconds. The writers made him so powerful that they don’t seem to know what to do with him anymore, for example, the ambush at the top of the cliff in episode 15.



Cheetara like most other characters conveniently forgets her abilities when it suits the plot.



The point is that the writers seem to be ignoring SBS.



So basically you are more willing than others to let writers off the hook for inconsistent writing and poor characterisation?

Thank you, these answers are exactly what I meant. All of these defenses are basically just 'sure it doesn't make sense, so?'

And why is 'women are complicated' an acceptable reason to write females behaving illogically?

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

Right, but I'm not on here every week consistently arguing against the show and and shooting down possible explanations for why certain things are the way they are with tautology like "bad writing is bad writing."

Actually you have been fairly critical on occasion as well. And as many others have pointed out, bad writing IS bad writing.

People are entitled to express their opinions on a message board, good OR bad. Ideally they're civil about it.

That said, I get your point even if I disagree with how you presented it.

[CreepySariFan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

Thank you, these answers are exactly what I meant. All of these defenses are basically just 'sure it doesn't make sense, so?'

And why is 'women are complicated' an acceptable reason to write females behaving illogically?

Really, why does it matter to you so much? Why are you victimizing ThunderCats over everything else that's guilty of the same thing?

Also, I've had some stereotype relationships, so it really doesn't even phase me to see Cheetara like that.

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreepySariFan

Really, why does it matter to you so much? Why are you victimizing ThunderCats over everything else that's guilty of the same thing?

Also, I've had some stereotype relationships, so it really doesn't even phase me to see Cheetara like that.

Dude, let it go. He isn't.

[Sining]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

Right, but I'm not on here every week consistently arguing against the show and and shooting down possible explanations for why certain things are the way they are with tautology like "bad writing is bad writing."

Eh, the show does suffer from bad writing. Especially the fight scenes. I don't think there's been a single good fight scene in season2.

[stac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

Thank you, these answers are exactly what I meant. All of these defenses are basically just 'sure it doesn't make sense, so?'

And why is 'women are complicated' an acceptable reason to write females behaving illogically?

Your criticisms are genuine and I agree with you.

In this case, the ‘women are complicated' excuse provides an easy, no-analysis-required justification for idiotic storytelling. Apparently some believe that anything the writers chose to do renders it inherently legitimate simply for the fact that the writers have chosen to do so.

Cheetara has barely received any significant character development and the triangle has negatively affected any development that had taken place.

The problem isn’t that writers chose to do Tygra/Cheetara – it’s how they went about doing it.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stac

In this case, the ‘women are complicated' excuse provides an easy, no-analysis-required justification for idiotic storytelling. Apparently some believe that anything the writers chose to do renders it inherently legitimate simply for the fact that the writers have chosen to do so.

Cheetara has barely received any significant character development and the triangle has negatively affected any development that had taken place.

The problem isn’t that writers chose to do Tygra/Cheetara – it’s how they went about doing it.

Exactly, the major problem with the triangle that most of us been discussing after that dreaded EP13 aired. Should they have some development or something at all no matter how small other than the EP13 "out of the blue flower thing" with T/C before Ep13, then the "Cheetara as a character and triangle debate" will be not be this "long and bumpy".

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[OmenBill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Exactly, the major problem with the triangle that most of us been discussing after that dreaded EP13 aired. Should they have some development or something at all no matter how small other than the EP13 "out of the blue flower thing" at all with T/C before Ep13, then the "Cheetara as a character and triangle debate" will be not be this "long and bumpy".

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

I find it funny that it always seems to go back to the triangle in these episode topics. Like I said before, maybe that's how Cheetara is personality wise, she jumps into things too quickly, like she did with the Cleric test.

If Lion-O is capable of forgetting his lessons, maybe she can too.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmenBill

I find it funny that it always seems to go back to the triangle in these episode topics. Like I said before, maybe that's how Cheetara is personality wise, she jumps into things too quickly, like she did with the Cleric test.

If Lion-O is capable of forgetting his lessons, maybe she can too.

Then why she did not pick Lion-O from the beginning? Clearly Lion-O was the only one she "talked and cared" about in the first 12 EPs. Zero interest to Tygra. No matter what justification or explanation we have for Cheetara it cannot change the fact that she's "badly written".

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[CreepySariFan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Then why she did not pick Lion-O from the start? Clearly Lion-O was the only one she "talked and cared" about in the first 12 EPs. Zero interest to Tygra. No matter what justification or explanation we have for Cheetara it cannot change the fact that she's "badly written"

In Gurren Lagann, why did Yoko ditch Simon for Kamina? They didn't even HAVE an explaination.

At that point, Simon did even WORSE than Lion-O. Kamina isn't coming back from the dead.

Is Yoko badly written? I dunno, I'm busy starring at the stars.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Then why she did not pick Lion-O from the start? Clearly Lion-O was the only one she "talked and cared" about in the first 12 EPs. Zero interest to Tygra. No matter what justification or explanation we have for Cheetara it cannot change the fact that she's "badly written".

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

That's not the point. This episode has nothing to do with the triangle. If fans want to talk about the triangle, then for goodness sake take it to the appropriate thread. Why don't you make a Love Triangle thread? All of this derailment is just messing with the integrity of the entire board. The discussion is suppose to be about episode 16.

That being said, sorry for adding to the clutter.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreepySariFan

In Gurren Lagann, why did Yoko ditch Simon for Kamina? They didn't even HAVE an explaination.

At that point, Simon did even WORSE than Lion-O. Kamina isn't coming back from the dead.

Is Yoko badly written? I dunno, I'm busy starring at the stars.

I said "badly written" with quotes, back to the "Level of assness" I mentioned :http://www.thundercats.ws/thundercat...2/7/#post44788

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[hollowdheart]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreepySariFan

In Gurren Lagann, why did Yoko ditch Simon for Kamina? They didn't even HAVE an explaination.

At that point, Simon did even WORSE than Lion-O. Kamina isn't coming back from the dead.

Is Yoko badly written? I dunno, I'm busy starring at the stars.

Yoko did not ditch Simon for Kamina. She never did anything like kiss him on the cheek or anything romantic with him by Japan's standards of writing romance. The reason she liked Kamina was because he was able to encourage people. And it was Kamina and Thymilph's fault he died, not Simon or Yoko's. Kamina got out of Gurren and let his guard down. Thymilph took the opening and attacked.

[OmenBill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Then why she did not pick Lion-O from the beginning? Clearly Lion-O was the only one she "talked and cared" about in the first 12 EPs. Zero interest to Tygra. No matter what justification or explanation we have for Cheetara it cannot change the fact that she's "badly written".

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

Well if going by my previously stated argument of her jumping in, she already jumped in on her feelings for Tygra when she was a kid, which technically happened before going everywhere with Lion-O. Even if she did spend all that screen time with Lion-O.

Look I don't like how it happened in the series either man, but right now I'm thinking the writers have some reason for doing what they did. I think people are really jumping the "bad writing" without knowing what may happen next that could possibly put a new view on everything for us later on. Maybe by the seasons end she ends up with Lion-O, who knows!?! Plus I gotta agree, even with the complaints I made about this episode before, I gotta give the series some leeway since it's still the first season, plus I keep coming back to it out of hope it will get better, and I still have some enjoyment when I watch.

Back on this episode, anybody else wonder where exactly Mumm-Ra went? I mean, did he leave his own home base or just go further into the depths?

[hollowdheart]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmenBill

Back on this episode, anybody else wonder where exactly Mumm-Ra went? I mean, did he leave his own home base or just go further into the depths?

It looked like he went into a pit or something. Maybe a healing pool of some sort? Or wherever he rests?

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

It looked like he went into a pit or something. Maybe a healing pool of some sort? Or wherever he rests?

I have a related question. Isn't Mummra‘s physical body stuck as a bird? How did that get solved?

[hollowdheart]

I think it's a crow, but his current body looks more like a bat. I don't think it's been solved yet.....it'd be interesting though.