Thundercats Ep 16 Trials of Lion-O Pt 2 Discussion

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmenBill

Well if going by my previously stated argument of her jumping in, she already jumped in on her feelings for Tygra when she was a kid, which technically happened before going everywhere with Lion-O. Even if she did spend all that screen time with Lion-O.

Look I don't like how it happened in the series either man, but right now I'm thinking the writers have some reason for doing what they did. I think people are really jumping the "bad writing" without knowing what may happen next that could possibly put a new view on everything for us later on. Maybe by the seasons end she ends up with Lion-O, who knows!?! Plus I gotta agree, even with the complaints I made about this episode before, I gotta give the series some leeway since it's still the first season, plus I keep coming back to it out of hope it will get better, and I still have some enjoyment when I watch.

Jumped in on her feelings for Tygra when she was little but did nothing about it for 8 or so years. Assuming in that 8 or so years she's "busy" then she should do something about it during one of those 12 Eps, as she "loves" Tygra so much, instead she's "busy harassing" Lion-O . Which is why in the end she will hookup with Jelenic. Heck she may even has feelings for Jelenic before she met Tygra and Lion-O. Her final jump will be into Jelenic's arms.
_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

That's not the point. This episode has nothing to do with the triangle. If fans want to talk about the triangle, then for goodness sake take it to the appropriate thread. Why don't you make a Love Triangle thread? All of this derailment is just messing with the integrity of the entire board. The discussion is suppose to be about episode 16.

That being said, sorry for adding to the clutter.

The problem that keeps occurring is very simple. Whenever people start talking about the episode, someone mentions a problem with the writing of the show, someone else argues with that person and says to give examples, and then the first person cites, among other things, the triangle, the second person then starts arguing why those examples aren't true. And the cycle continues.

So it's not willful derailing, it is actually discussing this episode, it's just a weird drift that keeps occurring because discussing the episode keeps sliding into talking about the show. It's actually kind of interesting to see it keep repeating itself.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

I think it's a crow, but his current body looks more like a bat. I don't think it's been solved yet.....it'd be interesting though.

Ok, not following this. I don't remember seeing Mumm-ra as any flying creature in this episode, did I miss something? And my point is, I thought he was trapped as a crow against his will. In other words, he couldn't take his normal form even if he wanted to. I thought the astral plane was an exception because it was his soul and obviously his soul is his true self.

But then in this episode he's fine again and I don't remember any mention being made of how he fixed the curse (didn't Jaga do it to him?).

I'm not trying to say 'oh my god, bad writing!' this is an honest question, did I miss something? Although, if it was completely dropped, that's a pretty big plot-hole.

[DanaLynn]

Ok. I have to put my 2 cents in regarding Cheetara and Tygra. In episode 9, at the beginning when they were going to sleep outside in the rain, who did Cheetara cuddle up to to go to sleep? Tygra.

[Eclipse]

I also seem to recall Lion-O looked particularly disgruntled at them.

[nickanu]

The biggest thing that bugged me in this episode was the end. The whole you have till sunrise to get back the sword and save your friends and then you’re going into purgatory. sunrise comes and they give him back his life anyway even though they never said they would, even if he succeeded. So regardless he was going to get back his soul and his life. That’s just establihung rules to break them…and that bad writing 101...

It would’ve made better sense to me if they would’ve wrote. that at the end the four trials were just a smokescreen. that he was always set up to fail them, the actual test was him willingly giving up his soul for the others….so in the end they gave him back his life for passing the unseen test…but that’s just me trying to fix things in my head.

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickanu

The biggest thing that bugged me in this episode was the end. The whole you have till sunrise to get back the sword and save your friends and then you’re going into purgatory. sunrise comes and they give him back his life anyway even though they never said they would, even if he succeeded. So regardless he was going to get back his soul and his life. That’s just establihung rules to break them…and that bad writing 101...

It would’ve made better sense to me if they would’ve wrote. that at the end the four trials were just a smokescreen. that he was always set up to fail them, the actual test was him willingly giving up his soul for the others….so in the end they gave him back his life for passing the unseen test…but that’s just me trying to fix things in my head.

Isn't that what Jaga said? That the trials tested not only his skills but his heart as well, and when he was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice to save his friends he passed.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

Isn't that what Jaga said? That the trials tested not only his skills but his heart as well, and when he was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice to save his friends he passed.

I agree with you, but I think what s/he? was getting at is that they made it too easy. It seems as if he could have just passed the four trials and not had to show he was willing to sacrifice himself, or he could be willing to sacrifice himself and fail all the trials and he would have one either way. It seems like a slightly easy trial for your life.

I think s/he's saying is they should have clearly made it one or the other. Either make the trials the test, or say the real test was the sacrifice thing, not just one of the above.

I'm basically with you, I think it's fine, but I get where s/he's coming from.

[AlexofThundera]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

There is a reason people keep saying this show has bad writing. Because, to most people, it does. People don't just randomly attack the writing, and this isn't one or two people. People everywhere, from random fans to professional critics, constantly cite the bad writing. That is not a conspiracy, it is the honest feelings of most of the people that watch this show. The show has great animation, a fascinating setting, characters that we love (although I'm not enamored with some of the NS directions they've gone), but it's writing is NOT up to par.

I have to concur with this. So far they have delivered two episodes which I believe have been fantastic. The Song of the Petalars & The Duelist and the Drifter. These two episodes are what Thundercats is about (to me). Watching our favorite characters explore their world and encounter strange and interesting new characters along the way while learning lessons in life, all while dodging Mummras attempts at stealing the Eye of Thundera.

All the other episodes have just been "one watch" episodes. I watch em once, and don't find myself wanting to watch them again. Yet there are episodes in the OS which I can watch time and time again (The Ghost Warrior).

The two episodes in the NS I mentioned up top I have watched 2 or 3 times. They are also two of the episodes from the NS which I see people on here and Tcatslair mention the most. I wonder if the writers ever get word of this?

Point blank, the writing has not been good. It seems like WB has this fantastic show in their hands that was just "magic" when it came together in the 80's, but they don't quite know how to keep that magic flowing in today's world.

[AlexofThundera]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickanu

It would’ve made better sense to me if they would’ve wrote. that at the end the four trials were just a smokescreen. that he was always set up to fail them, the actual test was him willingly giving up his soul for the others….so in the end they gave him back his life for passing the unseen test…but that’s just me trying to fix things in my head.

I like this idea a lot.

Perhaps they could have made him fail them, and while doing so felt angry / resentful towards the other cats for beating him but in the end realizing his perception is wrong and that they are his friends trying to better him. Then he gives up his soul for them, which ends up being the true test as you said. That is good story telling imo.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmenBill

I was kinda counting Mumm-ra in that 7 number, 6 thundercats if I remember correctly. Lion-O isn't set yet, sure he passed the trials and made Mumm-ra run away like a sissy girl in that last episode, but I'm sure he's got a few more thing's he'll have to overcome still, same with the rest. As for Leo, we saw him through Lion-O's actions, so I don't know if I can place him as an important character. Since he's really just Lion-O still, with longer hair. Unless they show him with out Lion-O acting as him he really isn't his own characer. I kinda thought Panthera was just sort of there, sort of a support pillar for him (similar to how I saw Cheetara in the beginning) and planner for the rebellion not sure how she'd get much more screen or story time in, if she even survived that crash at the end.

I'm hoping the show does touch on that city again, the Wily's made it sound really important (and interesting to me) in that first episode then I can't remember hearing them talk about it afterwords, it just kinda disapeared with Lion-O's love of technology.

As for Jaga appearing, Cheetara knew clerics could some how force ghost it????....... I dunno if it isn't touched on in the next episode it's just one more thing we can tack on to the category "Things the Writers don't know how to write."

They said we would see them again (leo and panthera).

I think it was on the back burner (love of tech)

Well, she was sad at the tower of omens and then there he is in the sky. I would be like WTF.

[Tracer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickanu

I know what you mean...
I thing in American shows they feel they need to start a episode with a problem and end the episode with the resolution of that problem....but in anime the stretch it out over several episodes....like ending in the middle of a battle and then start the next episode right where they left off...DBZ would go 5 episode of just one fight....so you would get so much more content....I guess in America they feel we just don't have the attention span for that...

There has been research to indicate that TV shows perform better here with self-contained episodes instead of one solid arc. I do agree that things go too fast much of the time. The trials alone should have been at least three episodes.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

When MJ said that, the first 26 EPs were done practically speaking, so IMO the first 26 Eps will indeed explore on the main casts more. Should they decide for Pumyra to join a more "recurring guess star role" it will happen after EP26.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

Agreed.

They have not done any justice of fleshing out other characters, so they wouldn't do the same for a guess star.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

That depends how you define this season. According to Cartoon Network it is the second season.

We are going by WB's season. Season one is completed (WB has already completed it, not aired it).

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreepySariFan

One of the interviews said we're getting some more flashbacks to that era, I think.

Correct. Someone asked if we would see them again. They said yes.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

Going back to the love triangle in Season 1, I forgot about Panthera.

Lion-O had an attraction for her during the love triangle. So he'll easily fall for another girl.

Lion-O getting the signals mixed up with Cheetara could have had a basis from his experience with Panthera.

I disagree about falling for another girl and I believe panthera was a foreshadowing.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

They said we would see them again (leo and panthera).

I think it was on the back burner (love of tech)

Well, she was sad at the tower of omens and then there he is in the sky. I would be like WTF.

Maybe we "misread" her sadness about Jaga's death?

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Exactly. Unfortunately the show already made "Perfect Jelenic's Senses"

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

I don't know of any show that was 13 episodes in having holes.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stac

Your criticisms are genuine and I agree with you.

In this case, the ‘women are complicated' excuse provides an easy, no-analysis-required justification for idiotic storytelling. Apparently some believe that anything the writers chose to do renders it inherently legitimate simply for the fact that the writers have chosen to do so.

Cheetara has barely received any significant character development and the triangle has negatively affected any development that had taken place.

The problem isn’t that writers chose to do Tygra/Cheetara – it’s how they went about doing it.

Agree.

A flower.

I think her growth has gotten worse since the kiss.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Agree.

A flower.

I think her growth has gotten worse since the kiss.

Cheetara as a character definately needs fleshing out.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaLynn

Ok. I have to put my 2 cents in regarding Cheetara and Tygra. In episode 9, at the beginning when they were going to sleep outside in the rain, who did Cheetara cuddle up to to go to sleep? Tygra.

She didn't cuddle with him. She was next to him and they were both asleep.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Maybe we "misread" her sadness about Jaga's death?

She gave the wrong singals.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Cheetara as a character definately needs fleshing out.

Big time. We know more about the others than her.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Big time. We know more about the others than her.

I think she was either an orphan like the Wilykittens, or a runaway. She was probably poor and knew that becoming a cleric was a way out.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

I think she was either an orphan like the Wilykittens, or a runaway. She was probably poor and knew that becoming a cleric was a way out.

She said it was her dream.

[nickanu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

Isn't that what Jaga said? That the trials tested not only his skills but his heart as well, and when he was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice to save his friends he passed.

what I'm trying to say is that should've been the trial form the beginning...cause let's face it the othe 4 trials were lessened the Lion-o has already learned in past episodes.... it would've ended the same but felt more unexpected....but as it was it was too predictable....I guess I'm just splitting hairs though...

[Given2u]

I will have to say that to some extent, the ranting do control the show. Some of guys assume that the show WILL go up to 52 eps. Nothing is certain at this point. it looks like some of guys haven't seen a show get cut short. We're already in episode 17 and I must admit that the so called it "Jenelic's long Thundercats movie" is being done inconsistently. They are moving too fast. It seems to me that they are moving as if there will be no 52 eps. We can't say that it just starting because we're almost at the "half waypoint" and most of the fans including myself are not take this show all that seriously. If the plane doesn't have any speed, then it will crash and crash hard.

[Given2u]

People keep on bring up the T/C is beacuse it's were it all fell apart. They are pointing at the fault line sort of speak.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Maybe we "misread" her sadness about Jaga's death?

Or She's "bored" with the "old coot" already. She did pick Tygra out of all the current possible "candidates" for now...

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

I think she was either an orphan like the Wilykittens, or a runaway. She was probably poor and knew that becoming a cleric was a way out.

The twins are the most "consistent" in terms of characterization so far practically speaking. Maybe It's because Jelenic said it himself they are his favorites "Wilykit and Wilykat are usually my favorites. I always love writing comedy"

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaLynn

Ok. I have to put my 2 cents in regarding Cheetara and Tygra. In episode 9, at the beginning when they were going to sleep outside in the rain, who did Cheetara cuddle up to to go to sleep? Tygra.

They did not cuddle up. They were just sitting and sleeping next to each other, and their faces weren't showing any kinds of "romanticism", though of course it's subjective to each individuals viewing the scene. In any case, Tygra himself even admitted it that Cheetara "was into" Lion-O, this was direct from the "boyfriend"

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

They did not cuddle up. They just sitting and sleeping next to each other, and their faces aren't showing any kinds of "romanticism", tough of course it's subjective to each individuals viewing the scene. In any case, Tygra himself even admitted it that Cheetara "was into" Lion-O, this is direct from the "boyfriend"

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

Which is one of the reasons this makes 0 sense. Even the man that Cheetara chose thought that she was interested in his brother.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

She gave the wrong singals.

Her "signals" were always "messy". Only to Jelenic her "signals" were always "crystal clear"

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Big time. We know more about the others than her.

Jelenic is "care full" of revealing her because she's his "girlfriend". He does not want to reveal her "dirty secrets". What we "really" know so far about her from the crew is her "fake boobs"

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Or She's "bored" with the "old coot" already. She did pick Tygra out of all the current possible "candidates" for now...

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

How could she not pick MJ.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Jelenic is "care full" of revealing her because she's his "girlfriend". He does not want to reveal her "dirty secrets". What we "really" know so far about her from the crew is her "fake boobs"

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

Yeah, they seem to change each scene.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Yeah, they seem to change each scene.

How observant of you with the "details" Unless it was Jaga's idea in the first place for her to have "implants", of course provided it was not a "magical boobs" somekind of "cleric magic" thing

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

How could she not pick MJ.

It's very hard for her to "resist" MJ, He's her boss.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

It's very hard for her to "resist" MJ, He's her boss.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

At least she respects one of her bosses, but not jaga.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

At least she respects one of her bosses, but not jaga.

Well Jaga does not "bring real food to her table" Jelenic on the other hand does. "Tough choices" in her life.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

I agree with you, but I think what s/he? was getting at is that they made it too easy. It seems as if he could have just passed the four trials and not had to show he was willing to sacrifice himself, or he could be willing to sacrifice himself and fail all the trials and he would have one either way. It seems like a slightly easy trial for your life.

I think s/he's saying is they should have clearly made it one or the other. Either make the trials the test, or say the real test was the sacrifice thing, not just one of the above.

I'm basically with you, I think it's fine, but I get where s/he's coming from.

The stone according to what jaga said already deemed lion-o worthy of a second chance and the trials was a way to show lion-o why the stone found him worthy

[merlin]

i like jaga ghost in trials of lion-o

[nickanu]

has anyone seen the preview for episode 17 yet?....it's usually up on their facebook page by now......all I know is it's call native son..

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickanu

has anyone seen the preview for episode 17 yet?....it's usually up on their facebook page by now......all I know is it's call native son..

I think we're only getting them every other week now because they're worried about the spoilery goodness.

[CreepySariFan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

I think we're only getting them every other week now because they're worried about the spoilery goodness.

Didn't we get the last preview on Friday?

[hollowdheart]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreepySariFan

Didn't we get the last preview on Friday?

Yeah, but the one before that we didn't get. I'd like a trailer soon, it'll give me an idea of what it'll be like, so if it doesn't look interesting i don't have to get up so early to watch it.

[L08e16o]

It seems they want to keep everything a secret. They have been very tight lip about everything.

It is like they are building everything up to surprise us.

[nickanu]

maybe were getting a new character.... and they're trying to keep it a secret...

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickanu

maybe were getting a new character.... and they're trying to keep it a secret...

I think everything has been a secret.

This is about tygra's past.

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

I think everything has been a secret.

This is about tygra's past.

I wonder if he is the boy no one wanted????