Thundercats Ep 13 - Between Brothers Discussion

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Bengali: Tygra watch it! I have my hammer eyeing your butt if you are eying Pumyra's butt.

Tygra: You've got a hammer, but I've got a gun.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Tygra: You've got a hammer, but I've got a gun.

Not neccesary, maybe the Bengali here will have an upgraded Hammer, with multiple on board guns. I have more "guns" then you Tygra.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Not neccesary, maybe the Bengali here will have an upgraded Hammer, with multiple on board guns.

In the OS, didn't his hammer fire laser blasts? Tygra better go invisible to attack!

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

In the OS, didn't his hammer fire laser blasts?

I think so. In the NS will be the upgraded hammer I think.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

In the OS, didn't his hammer fire laser blasts? Tygra better go invisible to attack!

The fight is on for Pumyra's Love! Oh wait the fight is on for Pumyra's butt!

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

The fight is on for Pumyra's Love! Oh wait the fight is on for Pumyra's butt!

Hey now, she could have a tail in this series.

[AdamofEternia]

i still think for now, they should leave the whole love triangle alone and focus on the main plot. it might just be me but i believe liono is better of alone right now. i hope pumyra's character isn't written as a love interest because that might end up as another mess., when pumyra is introduced, i want her character to have an interesting back story that will give her character depth and not just another mystery like our main regulars.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Hey now, she could have a tail in this series.

Pumyra will be angry with both of them

Pumyra: Both of you, stop starring at my butt! My Tail is alot hotter you know!

[cmangund]

Been fooling around a little with my brain, I’ll just type it down from my brain, using Cheetara/SoO/Lion connections theories, Cheetara’s diaologue to Lion-O when explaining about the past connection with SoO:

-Assuming she has chosen Tygra, but her dialogue in EP13 was a twist, as she only said "you're right I did choose years ago".

Can be a Nursing Scene OR Just an intimate scene when they are alone:

Cheetara: Lion-O!
Lion-O: Just leave me alone Cheetara, please. Does not matter of how I feel, you have chosen…(feeling distressed and/OR moving away from her(if it was not a nursing scene))
Cheetara: It’s not like what you’ve think it is!. (holding Lion-O in place with a deep hug or holding Lion-O’s hand if its a nursing scene)
Cheetara: You have to hear the whole story. I did choose your brother the first time, after I joined the clerics things change.

(Flashback---->)
Chetara: After I completed most of my training as a cleric, I was chosen by Jaga to be the SoO guardian as . Jaga conjured a spell on me to be connected with the SoO, the chosen bearer and to choose the worthy bearer. I followed both of you and Tygra, from the shadows for years. The spell allows me to “see” the “heart” of both of you. That’s when I made the choice the second time,…

(Return to current scene)

Cheetara: It’s you Lion-O… (moving closer eye to eye contact)
Lion-O: I…You chose me because I was worthy for the sword.
Cheetara: No, I chose you because of your heart (moving even closer until they almost kiss).

Then maybe Cheetara will give him a light lip kiss with the actual making out kiss Ep26.

[Grune the Destroyer]

Finally got around to seeing this episode - fantastic!

But I do hope the romance sub-plot isn't over-egged over the next arc of episodes. I am pleased Cheetara chose Tygra though.

And poor Panthro!

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

I know you guys were joking about Lion-O going back into the book, but it got me thinking that it could be what episode 14 is.

the new alliances/ lost causes titles would fit because it would show Leo trying to bring all the animals together, but ultimately failing to do so. and the crew did say we would see them again.

Maybe Lion-O goes into the book to try to get away from everyone and he sees what happened when the animals didn't trust one another and they didn't work together, so he comes back out with a new resolve to not let that happen to the Thundercats.

I was a bit more serious when i said maybe the spirit stone is what would reanimate the missing chapters of the book

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

There's one problem with that scenario, will not fit the theme, after what happened in Ep13, That might happened in Ep15 Lion-O trials PI. Where Lion-O's heart and mind are a lot better. Ep14 will also have to deal with Explaining the reason Cheetara following Lion-O around, based on what we saw from Ep1-13, This must be a direct conversation between Lion-O and Cheetara ala the flower thing with Tygra. Going into the book is dangerous Jaga will not allow it in Lion-O's current state.

It would depend on how much time has passed between the two ep

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

So I wonder if we could end up with a situation, were both brothers dump her for a while?

Tygra isn't going to dump her

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

You really wanted Snow Meow to eat everyone eh, how about Mum-Ra will snow meow eat Mumm-Ra?

If mum-ra messes with pumyra he will eat or rip him to pieces.

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

I think most of the fans will not like it of they are going to make Pumyra old or a mother figure. I think Pumyra will be around Cheetara and Tygra's age. Aside from the obvious reason of doing another triangle.

And what would be wrong with her being older or being like a mother figure maybe thats what lion-o and the group need right now especially lion-o & the kittens

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamofEternia

i still think for now, they should leave the whole love triangle alone and focus on the main plot. it might just be me but i believe liono is better of alone right now. i hope pumyra's character isn't written as a love interest because that might end up as another mess., when pumyra is introduced, i want her character to have an interesting back story that will give her character depth and not just another mystery like our main regulars.

I don't. They been putting all that stuff in with the plot running. Lion-o has been a loner most of his life, he would just be accepting what he was in his past. There would be no growth on his part. He should at least tell her his feelings.

Why wouldn't they make another drama, they did it with E13. 1-12 of L/C and not T/C, why wouldn't they won't waste chance to do it.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

There's one problem with that scenario, will not fit the theme, after what happened in Ep13, That might happened in Ep15 Lion-O trials PI. Where Lion-O's heart and mind are a lot better. Ep14 will also have to deal with Explaining the reason Cheetara following Lion-O around, based on what we saw from Ep1-13, This must be a direct conversation between Lion-O and Cheetara ala the flower thing with Tygra. Going into the book is dangerous Jaga will not allow it in Lion-O's current state.

Agree.

Everyone wants lion-o to move on, when tygra could not and he is in his 20s.

I do think the trails will be about his heart, he lives by his heart. Tygra is more lives with his head first.

I don't know if the book would accept him when he is doubting himself.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

I wonder how long it will take for Lion-os emotional state to improve?

I think after trails part 2, he will be back to his normal self.

I think we are going to learn more about cheetara and lion-o in the next few episodes.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Ep 14 will fix most of his state I think, since Trial is up next. And the only way to fix his heart and mental state is by at least making Cheetara cannot really choosing ether brothers. After the intimate scene between Lion-O/Cheetara

I can't see lion-o ok until they talk. I think tygra and lion-o will talk too.

I think in trails 1 lion-o will fail and begin to doubt himself again, that is where I think cheetara will come in.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Gotta do something with those 39 episodes left.

Agreed.

If they can do E13, think how much more they can do.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

Technically in the interview Michael said "around" episode 14. It might not actually happen IN episode 14.

It still falls around lion-o trials.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

And then Pumyra shows up...

In native son.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

The fight is on for Pumyra's Love! Oh wait the fight is on for Pumyra's butt!

Can you imagine if they had two love triangls going on at the same time.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Pumyra will be angry with both of them

Pumyra: Both of you, stop starring at my butt! My Tail is alot hotter you know!

She probably kick both of their butts.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Been fooling around a little with my brain, I’ll just type it down from my brain, using Cheetara/SoO/Lion connections theories, Cheetara’s diaologue to Lion-O when explaining about the past connection with SoO:

-Assuming she has chosen Tygra, but her dialogue in EP13 was a twist, as she only said "you're right I did choose years ago".

Can be a Nursing Scene OR Just an intimate scene when they are alone:

Cheetara: Lion-O!
Lion-O: Just leave me alone Cheetara, please. Does not matter of how I feel, you have chosen…(feeling distressed and/OR moving away from her(if it was not a nursing scene))
Cheetara: It’s not like what you’ve think it is!. (holding Lion-O in place with a deep hug or holding Lion-O’s hand if its a nursing scene)
Cheetara: You have to hear the whole story. I did choose your brother the first time, after I joined the clerics things change.

(Flashback---->)
Chetara: After I completed most of my training as a cleric, I was chosen by Jaga to be the SoO guardian as . Jaga conjured a spell on me to be connected with the SoO, the chosen bearer and to choose the worthy bearer. I followed both of you and Tygra, from the shadows for years. The spell allows me to “see” the “heart” of both of you. That’s when I made the choice the second time,…

(Return to current scene)

Cheetara: It’s you Lion-O… (moving closer eye to eye contact)
Lion-O: I…You chose me because I was worthy for the sword.
Cheetara: No, I chose you because of your heart (moving even closer until they almost kiss).

Then maybe Cheetara will give him a light lip kiss with the actual making out kiss Ep26.

Very good.

Lion-o can not be king unless he has a queen.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

It would depend on how much time has passed between the two ep

I don't think they will make a lot of time pass.

If lion-o is ok, how does that add layers to his character and he would be the same lion-o that accepts second place. He will not give up without a fight, that would show his growth in his character.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

And what would be wrong with her being older or being like a mother figure maybe thats what lion-o and the group need right now especially lion-o & the kittens

Lion-o does not need a mother. Look the one person he trust, just went behind his back. He is not going to accept anyone any time soon.

If pumyra is just a mother figure, no one will buy her toy.

[AdamofEternia]

i think liono's destiny is too grand for him to be hung over on romance. im sure since she has made her choice, he will realize that there are more important things than romance and will become more focused. i kind of understand why the writers had her choose tygra over him, it's all about adding layers to the character. liono's character has to go through a few obstacles to learn something about himself and that is a good way to introduce growth to a character. through out the first 12 episodes, he was almost being pampered like a baby by cheetara. IMHO, he didn't need that and now that cheetara has chosen tygra, she can leave liono be so he can try to better understand the severity of his quest.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamofEternia

i think liono's destiny is too grand for him to be hung over on romance. im sure since she has made her choice, he will realize that there are more important things than romance and will become more focused. i kind of understand why the writers had her choose tygra over him, it's all about adding layers to the character. liono's character has to go through a few obstacles to learn something about himself and that is a good way to introduce growth to a character. through out the first 12 episodes, he was almost being pampered like a baby by cheetara. IMHO, he didn't need that and now that cheetara has chosen tygra, she can leave liono be so he can try to better understand the severity of his quest.

The story is of a boy growing into a man.

Writers had her chose early to add to the drama and triangle. I don't think he was pampered, she was flirting.

Why doesn't he need that? No one believed in him his whole life and was pushed aside. It is very unrealistic for someone just stepping up to the plate and beome the greatest king of all time and unite the world against mummra. Has history have a great hero ever do this? You are wanting him to tred a very lonely road. Think about it, he didn't say anything about mummra because he feared no one would believe him and would ridicule him. So the guy is now devastated probably hurt more than his whole life and he has to shrug his shoulders and move on. That is a quiter. He lives by his heart, he is not going to just move on.

Without talking to cheetara, this will eat at him. He is going to have to tell cheetara his feelings to move on. If she turns him down or accepts him, he will have closure. I don't think she will turn him down. This will make the drama worse. This falls in line with Cmangund's cheetara's conflicted feelings. Remember nothing is certain.

Lion-o moving on without fighting for cheetara show that he is still ok finishing second place. Something we have learn through out the first 13 episodes.

She chose tygra, but I still believe she was motivated by Annet's prediction.

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Agree.

Everyone wants lion-o to move on, when tygra could not and he is in his 20s.

I do think the trails will be about his heart, he lives by his heart. Tygra is more lives with his head first.

I don't know if the book would accept him when he is doubting himself.

I think Tygra had a crush on her from afar (his first crush), but I think he, like Lion-O, only really fell for her when they started their quest. I think he would've gotten over it eventually if she had chosen Lion-O in episode 13.

As for the book accepting Lion-O when he's doubting himself, I absolutely think it would. He wasn't exactly the epitome of confidence in episode 7. Plus Jaga was using it as a teaching tool. If he's already confident and able I don't think he would need the teaching as much.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamofEternia

i think liono's destiny is too grand for him to be hung over on romance. im sure since she has made her choice, he will realize that there are more important things than romance and will become more focused. i kind of understand why the writers had her choose tygra over him, it's all about adding layers to the character. liono's character has to go through a few obstacles to learn something about himself and that is a good way to introduce growth to a character. through out the first 12 episodes, he was almost being pampered like a baby by cheetara. IMHO, he didn't need that and now that cheetara has chosen tygra, she can leave liono be so he can try to better understand the severity of his quest.

Here is another thing, say cheetara doesn't want to chose anyone later and pumyra and lion-o got something going on, but tygra comes in and she kisses him. Do you want lion-o to keep moving on? When will the guy get a break. At some point lion-o will have to assert himself. I don't see him giving up.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

I think Tygra had a crush on her from afar (his first crush), but I think he, like Lion-O, only really fell for her when they started their quest. I think he would've gotten over it eventually if she had chosen Lion-O in episode 13.

As for the book accepting Lion-O when he's doubting himself, I absolutely think it would. He wasn't exactly the epitome of confidence in episode 7. Plus Jaga was using it as a teaching tool. If he's already confident and able I don't think he would need the teaching as much.

I think lion-o had a crush on her from the first time they met. I do too, I think the experience has allowed him to do that.

I don't. He was not doubting himself, he was more focus on finding away to use the BoO. All he knew is he needed to use the BoO. I think the BoO showed him the past and that they needed the stones.

What will the book show now.

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

The story is of a boy growing into a man.

Writers had her chose early to add to the drama and triangle. I don't think he was pampered, she was flirting.

Why doesn't he need that? No one believed in him his whole life and was pushed aside. It is very unrealistic for someone just stepping up to the plate and beome the greatest king of all time and unite the world against mummra. Has history have a great hero ever do this? You are wanting him to tred a very lonely road. Think about it, he didn't say anything about mummra because he feared no one would believe him and would ridicule him. So the guy is now devastated probably hurt more than his whole life and he has to shrug his shoulders and move on. That is a quiter. He lives by his heart, he is not going to just move on.

Without talking to cheetara, this will eat at him. He is going to have to tell cheetara his feelings to move on. If she turns him down or accepts him, he will have closure. I don't think she will turn him down. This will make the drama worse. This falls in line with Cmangund's cheetara's conflicted feelings. Remember nothing is certain.

Lion-o moving on without fighting for cheetara show that he is still ok finishing second place. Something we have learn through out the first 13 episodes.

She chose tygra, but I still believe she was motivated by Annet's prediction.

Jaga very definitely believed in him. All you really need is one good person to believe in you and he had the head of the Clerics believing in him.

If a girl turns you down and you accept it that doesn't make you a quitter. If someone keeps trying and trying and trying even tho the girl picks someone else most of the time they end up with a restraining order not the girl.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

Jaga very definitely believed in him. All you really need is one good person to believe in you and he had the head of the Clerics believing in him.

If a girl turns you down and you accept it that doesn't make you a quitter. If someone keeps trying and trying and trying even tho the girl picks someone else most of the time they end up with a restraining order not the girl.

Jaga didn't interact with lion-o that much, he is the king's advisor. His first duty was to the King. He didn't know where lion-o was in E1. It sure help him tell them about mummra didn't? If he had that one person he would've told him and he would have been different. He wouldn't have needed cheetara.

So where are the cops?

She has not turn him down. Has lion-o gone to cheetara and told her his feelings? Has she said no to lion-o?

Was that a lesson, I have been with the women I am with for a while. She would not like me just walking away with out giving up on her. It is different if cheetara said to lion-o, I chose tygra.

Still believe the prediction is apart of her decision.

[Eclipse]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Why wouldn't they make another drama, they did it with E13. 1-12 of L/C and not T/C, why wouldn't they won't waste chance to do it.

Thundercats: 90210 - All new episodes coming march 2012.

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Jaga didn't interact with lion-o that much, he is the king's advisor. His first duty was to the King. He didn't know where lion-o was in E1. It sure help him tell them about mummra didn't? If he had that one person he would've told him and he would have been different. He wouldn't have needed cheetara.

So where are the cops?

She has not turn him down. Has lion-o gone to cheetara and told her his feelings? Has she said no to lion-o?

Was that a lesson, I have been with the women I am with for a while. She would not like me just walking away with out giving up on her. It is different if cheetara said to lion-o, I chose tygra.

Still believe the prediction is apart of her decision.

The Mumm-Ra thing wasn't just about people not believing in him. Mumm-Ra was a myth. It would be like you going out and telling people you just saw the boogy man. Even if Tygra was the one that saw it they'd think he was crazy too.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Been fooling around a little with my brain, I’ll just type it down from my brain, using Cheetara/SoO/Lion connections theories, Cheetara’s diaologue to Lion-O when explaining about the past connection with SoO:

-Assuming she has chosen Tygra, but her dialogue in EP13 was a twist, as she only said "you're right I did choose years ago".

Can be a Nursing Scene OR Just an intimate scene when they are alone:

Cheetara: Lion-O!
Lion-O: Just leave me alone Cheetara, please. Does not matter of how I feel, you have chosen…(feeling distressed and/OR moving away from her(if it was not a nursing scene))
Cheetara: It’s not like what you’ve think it is!. (holding Lion-O in place with a deep hug or holding Lion-O’s hand if its a nursing scene)
Cheetara: You have to hear the whole story. I did choose your brother the first time, after I joined the clerics things change.

(Flashback---->)
Chetara: After I completed most of my training as a cleric, I was chosen by Jaga to be the SoO guardian as . Jaga conjured a spell on me to be connected with the SoO, the chosen bearer and to choose the worthy bearer. I followed both of you and Tygra, from the shadows for years. The spell allows me to “see” the “heart” of both of you. That’s when I made the choice the second time,…

(Return to current scene)

Cheetara: It’s you Lion-O… (moving closer eye to eye contact)
Lion-O: I…You chose me because I was worthy for the sword.
Cheetara: No, I chose you because of your heart (moving even closer until they almost kiss).

Then maybe Cheetara will give him a light lip kiss with the actual making out kiss Ep26.

This works for me. It doesn't contradict what we've seen or been told, and fixes that infamous ep 13 ending.

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Lion-o does not need a mother. Look the one person he trust, just went behind his back. He is not going to accept anyone any time soon.

If pumyra is just a mother figure, no one will buy her toy.

If you are familiar with MGS3 Boss was like a mother figure for snake, thiers was an intimate relationship that surpassed romance. If pumyra is like boss her toy would still sell.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

The Mumm-Ra thing wasn't just about people not believing in him. Mumm-Ra was a myth. It would be like you going out and telling people you just saw the boogy man. Even if Tygra was the one that saw it they'd think he was crazy too.

So was tech, but lion-o still believed in it. Remember what he said to cheetara, "you think I am crazy". He probably didn't say much, because they made fun of him. Grune did it. Tygra said it to him too about his tech.

I don't believe that. Tygra has acted as a princes should have, he would've been trust worthy. Jaga knew mummra was coming, but he didn't know when. Tygra would have spoked up and jaga would have cut in and explained it.

[AdamofEternia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Here is another thing, say cheetara doesn't want to chose anyone later and pumyra and lion-o got something going on, but tygra comes in and she kisses him. Do you want lion-o to keep moving on? When will the guy get a break. At some point lion-o will have to assert himself. I don't see him giving up.

that's why i said the writers should ease up on the romance and focus on the main plot. romance i think is too early as of now in the series. they writers should have established the main characters more first before they started playing around with relationships between the group.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

If you are familiar with MGS3 Boss was like a mother figure for snake, thiers was an intimate relationship that surpassed romance. If pumyra is like boss her toy would still sell.

For adults, but what about children.

I never played any of the games from the series. No a big shooter fan. Sorry.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamofEternia

that's why i said the writers should ease up on the romance and focus on the main plot. romance i think is too early as of now in the series. they writers should have established the main characters more first before they started playing around with relationships between the group.

I agree, but they had to have drama and a triangle. I think they will deal with lion-o's point of view and maybe some of cheetara's past.

They have been dealing with the plot in each episode, it just it takes a back seat to other things.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclipse

Thundercats: 90210 - All new episodes coming march 2012.

You are so right.

[AdamofEternia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

I agree, but they had to have drama and a triangle. I think they will deal with lion-o's point of view and maybe some of cheetara's past.

They have been dealing with the plot in each episode, it just it takes a back seat to other things.

that is where i have a problem with the series. this love triangle matter seemed to overshadow even the main story arc. im surprised no one is talking about how a few thundercats defeated the entire army of mumra while in the pilot episode, the kingdom of thundera was overwhelmed by same army.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamofEternia

that is where i have a problem with the series. this love triangle matter seemed to overshadow even the main story arc. im surprised no one is talking about how a few thundercats defeated the entire army of mumra while in the pilot episode, the kingdom of thundera was overwhelmed by same army.

I agree.

That is why I think the new alliance is for mummra and he will get the stone from lion-o. Only stone lion-o needs is the green one.

Mummra took out all those clerics and thunderia, and they can't even beat the group.

I think it overshadows everything, because that is what we were left with. Come on E14.

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Here is another thing, say cheetara doesn't want to chose anyone later and pumyra and lion-o got something going on, but tygra comes in and she kisses him. Do you want lion-o to keep moving on? When will the guy get a break. At some point lion-o will have to assert himself. I don't see him giving up.

Thats why she might be older to avoid things like that

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

For adults, but what about children.

I never played any of the games from the series. No a big shooter fan. Sorry.

Ok but for the record cheetara was the mother figure in the OS

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamofEternia

that is where i have a problem with the series. this love triangle matter seemed to overshadow even the main story arc. im surprised no one is talking about how a few thundercats defeated the entire army of mumra while in the pilot episode, the kingdom of thundera was overwhelmed by same army.

I'm wondering why lion-o would need to unite the other animals to defeat mum-ra as the scenario is different from the legacy ep with the animals no longer being oppressed by mum-ra

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

The Mumm-Ra thing wasn't just about people not believing in him. Mumm-Ra was a myth. It would be like you going out and telling people you just saw the boogy man. Even if Tygra was the one that saw it they'd think he was crazy too.

Not really because they already knew about sight beyond sight and the sword engaged with lion-o differently alt least the clerics would have know the sight beyond sight feature was activated.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

It still falls around lion-o trials.

here's the exact quote:MJ: That little character beat of Cheetara's, following him around, we don't give a definitive answer to that until, I think, Episode 14. If you invest in the show, with each episode you'll get more out of it.