Thundercats Ep 15 Trials of Lion-O Pt 1 Discussion

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

I think the OS Lion-o, Tygra, and Cheetara would've mopped the floor with those 3.

Just the OS lion-o would've busted them up and the OS panthro would've destroyed them because when the OS panthro theme music comes on people get HURT!!! wish they did that with him in this show but they didn't

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

Just the OS lion-o would've busted them up and the OS panthro would've destroyed them because when the OS panthro theme music comes on people get HURT!!! wish they did that with him in this show but they didn't

I really wish the writers would have let Panthro use his bionic arms. There's no way the TCats should have gone down that easy.

[theking]

Anyone have spoilers for next weeks ep? (Irish people I'm looking at you) Could you send me personal message with the details its killing me to wait.

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by theking

Anyone have spoilers for next weeks ep? (Irish people I'm looking at you) Could you send me personal message with the details its killing me to wait.

Dude, don't hog it all!

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

Looking at the screenshots, there had to have been animation errors on the cuffs. And Kit was drawing herself on the rocks.

kit was cuffed when she was drawing on the first rock.

[Balgus82]

I just want to make two things clear.
1. Cheetara has NEVER disobeyed a command from Lion-O. Lion-O did not order her to keep fighting.
2. Cheetara was completely justified in thinking the mutants might take them prisoner. They DID keep them prisoner in this very episode. If they're the cold blooded killers absolutely guaranteed to kill them instead of taking them prisoner they'd ALL be dead right now instead of just Lion-O.

[hollowdheart]

I was talking about Cheetara and Tygra's cuffs, they aren't there in one scene, then they are in another. And i rewatched and the only thing stopping them is the Lizards, since Slythe, Addicus and Kaynar are all around Lion-o and near Kit, but again, the cuffs aren't there.....hopefully they'll fix the animation errors for the DVD release.

[hollowdheart]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

I just want to make two things clear.
1. Cheetara has NEVER disobeyed a command from Lion-O. Lion-O did not order her to keep fighting.
2. Cheetara was completely justified in thinking the mutants might take them prisoner. They DID keep them prisoner in this very episode. If they're the cold blooded killers absolutely guaranteed to kill them instead of taking them prisoner they'd ALL be dead right now instead of just Lion-O.

I thought they only took them prisoner since Lion-o was dead and they didn't want them locating the Gauntlet/finding his body/etc.

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

I thought they only took them prisoner since Lion-o was dead and they didn't want them locating the Gauntlet/finding his body/etc.

They wouldn't have been able to find the gauntlet or Lion-O's body if they were dead either. That's not really a viable reason for taking them prisoner instead of killing them.

[Eclipse]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sining

Maybe if they were so capable, they should use Sight beyond sight to see where to go next. Oh wait, they can't -_-... I'm just going to say this, don't argue with the guy with the mystical macguffin who's inexplicably giving him visions/advice from the beyond. It generally never ends well.

That goes for Lion-O, actually. He could and should have used SBS in order to clarify the location of the stone before deciding to follow that trail, and didn't. He endangered the team and lost the sword because of his own decisions.

Yeah, it's hateful But that's how it was written to justify the trials.

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

They wouldn't have been able to find the gauntlet or Lion-O's body if they were dead either. That's not really a viable reason for taking them prisoner instead of killing them.

Mumm-Ra needs a cleric to try and find a way to remove the spell from the Sword of Omens and he can make her watch him torture the others in order to coerce her?

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sining

I'm going to have to go back to what I've been saying previously. There is NO WAY the cats should have lost except by author fiat. They've got tons of special abilities on their side, a tank and a frigging guy with robot arms etc etc and they lost to 3 normal animals. Granted, the 3 animals are unique NPCs but I would consider the cats to all be consider unique characters as well.

Well it's either Lion-O made a bad call or Addicus and Kaynar are nothing more than chumps.

So the authors chose to make Addicus and Kaynar viable enemies and Lion-O to make a bad call. However, they decided to throw Cheetara under the Thundertank with that stupid decision to cover Lion-O's bad call.

[Ravenxl7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Moore

hundercats Episode 15 The Trials Of Lion-O Part 1 HD Screen Caps

Total of 189 caps this week. Enjoy folks.

Thank you Joe. Should make for good background and signature material.

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

Mumm-Ra needs a cleric to try and find a way to remove the spell from the Sword of Omens and he can make her watch him torture the others in order to coerce her?

I would bet that Mumm-Ra knows WAY more about magic than Cheetara. I mean we haven't even seen her use any magic other than her staff.

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

I would bet that Mumm-Ra knows WAY more about magic than Cheetara. I mean we haven't even seen her use any magic other than her staff.

It's not about knowing more magic, it's about knowing the right magic.

[stac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

I just want to make two things clear.
1. Cheetara has NEVER disobeyed a command from Lion-O. Lion-O did not order her to keep fighting.
2. Cheetara was completely justified in thinking the mutants might take them prisoner. They DID keep them prisoner in this very episode. If they're the cold blooded killers absolutely guaranteed to kill them instead of taking them prisoner they'd ALL be dead right now instead of just Lion-O.

1) This is exactly what makes this event so important. This incident only happened once she suddenly jumped to Team Tygra. Lion-O didn’t tell her to throw down her weapon and surrender. He clearly intended for them to continue the fight. Claiming that she did not “disobey” him is disingenuous. She clearly defied him and almost got everyone killed.

2) In the latest episode, Slithe and the Generals only kept the Cats alive until they got confirmation that Lion-O’s body (and the Gauntlet) couldn’t be found. Cheetara was justified in thinking they would take them prisoner? After Slithe spent the entire season hunting them down and almost killing them on one occasion? That must be some twisted logic on her part then. On the other hand, Lion-O had every reason to assume that surrender would lead to death not capture.

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stac

1) This is exactly what makes this event so important. This incident only happened once she suddenly jumped to Team Tygra. Lion-O didn’t tell her to throw down her weapon and surrender. He clearly intended for them to continue the fight. Claiming that she did not “disobey” him is disingenuous. She clearly defied him and almost got everyone killed.

You have to remember that Tygra isn't some common low level cat, he's the next one in line of the throne. One of her duties is to protect the Royal Family. It's easy to write it off as a personal choice of hers but there is also merit that this was a conflict of duties of protecting Royal Family vs. orders that risk his life.

[stac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

*Snap* Cheetara is a cleric but also serves as a body guard for the Royal Family. So she is inclined to not only protect Lion-O but Tygra also. Her decision wasn't just a personal one but a conflict of duties.

If you are duty bound to protect two princes, one in charge, and in the middle of a fight with no other options the other prince is threaten to be killed unless the group surrenders. The one prince in charge orders to not surrender. What does the body guard do, surrender to save the other prince or let the other prince die?

Except of course, both of them are not princes. True, Tygra is a prince and the heir to the Crown. However, Lion-O is the Lord of the ThunderCats, the King.
I remember, in the last thread someone used the analogy of the Secret Service. If the Presidents bodyguard had to chose between him and the Vice-President, who do you think would be chosen?

This is certainly not an easy choice but a Cleric who would put the life of a Prince over the life of the King should not be serving in that role.

[lionslayer]

Seriously, look at the first screen cap, the new Thundertank looks like two cats having sex.

[hollowdheart]

I never noticed that....why would they put that in a kid's cartoon? Surely some kids have seen their cats do that before they were fixed?

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

I never noticed that....why would they put that in a kid's cartoon? Surely some kids have seen their cats do that before they were fixed?

I wonder how many parents had to give their kids "the talk", after seeing the new thundertank?

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stac

1) This is exactly what makes this event so important. This incident only happened once she suddenly jumped to Team Tygra. Lion-O didn’t tell her to throw down her weapon and surrender. He clearly intended for them to continue the fight. Claiming that she did not “disobey” him is disingenuous. She clearly defied him and almost got everyone killed.

2) In the latest episode, Slithe and the Generals only kept the Cats alive until they got confirmation that Lion-O’s body (and the Gauntlet) couldn’t be found. Cheetara was justified in thinking they would take them prisoner? After Slithe spent the entire season hunting them down and almost killing them on one occasion? That must be some twisted logic on her part then. On the other hand, Lion-O had every reason to assume that surrender would lead to death not capture.

I have to disagree on both points.

1. Intentions or not he didn't order her to do anything so she was not disobeying any orders. Saying she was is just incorrect. You can't disobey an order that you were not given.

2. The fact that they did take them prisoner this time means the chance was there for them to take them prisoner the last time. Death was not certain. Also they didn't just suddenly decide to kill them when they couldn't find Lion-O. they only tried to kill them after Tygra started mouthing off at Slithe. They certainly didn't just keep them around until they made sure they couldn't find the gauntlet. That makes no sense. Holding them prisoner wouldn't help them find it now would it?

[CCDustyV]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

Yes, Tygra is going to be King for a little bit and I'm willing to bet he will falter when he sees all that is expected of Lion-O. It will be a real eye opener.

Now that scene with the captured cats highlights the differences between the two. Tygra DOES think before leaping, and it did manage to save their lives. Now that we've seen him succeed as King, its almost guaranteed that we will see him fail next sat. But that doesn't change the fact that Lion-O still needs to work on being King, and that the others can help him, assuming he takes some advice for once.

Something is going to have to happen next ep to show Tygra (and the others for that matter) that he isn't cut out for the job, or else things would actually be worse when Lion O comes back from the dead. If Tygra made the better leader all the way around, when Lion O returns, they'd be a power struggle. Should Tygra keep the crown or give it back to Lion O since he returned from the dead? Thus, Tygra has to mess up and see he shouldn't be king at least yet. Wouldn't take much to keep the kittens on Lion-o's side, but Panthro would need logic, and need some dang good logic to take the lovegoggles off Cheetara so she can lay off boyfriend support and give some true king support again.

[stac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

I have to disagree on both points.

1. Intentions or not he didn't order her to do anything so she was not disobeying any orders. Saying she was is just incorrect. You can't disobey an order that you were not given.

2. The fact that they did take them prisoner this time means the chance was there for them to take them prisoner the last time. Death was not certain. Also they didn't just suddenly decide to kill them when they couldn't find Lion-O. they only tried to kill them after Tygra started mouthing off at Slithe. They certainly didn't just keep them around until they made sure they couldn't find the gauntlet. That makes no sense. Holding them prisoner wouldn't help them find it now would it?

1) I did not say she “disobeyed” him. You are right; Lion-O did not give her an outright order. She did defy Lion-O though, right in the middle of a battle. He was planning on continuing the fight and he was clearly taken aback by her actions and tried to reasons with her. That would indicate to any rational person what was intended.

2) Slithe seems to decide to kill the Cats after he gets confirmation that the lizards could not find Lion-O’s body. Addicus makes a remark of there not being “anything left of them” and Slithe confirms that saying “I can assure you Addicus, there won’t be.”

Also, you are using the events that took place this episode to justify Cheetara’s actions last episode. Using all available information up to episode 14, Lion-O made the right call while assuming the worst possible outcome. Cheetara was simply too busy cheerleading for Team Tygra.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCDustyV

Something is going to have to happen next ep to show Tygra (and the others for that matter) that he isn't cut out for the job, or else things would actually be worse when Lion O comes back from the dead. If Tygra made the better leader all the way around, when Lion O returns, they'd be a power struggle. Should Tygra keep the crown or give it back to Lion O since he returned from the dead? Thus, Tygra has to mess up and see he shouldn't be king at least yet. Wouldn't take much to keep the kittens on Lion-o's side, but Panthro would need logic, and need some dang good logic to take the lovegoggles off Cheetara so she can lay off boyfriend support and give some true king support again.

Yep, I think Lion-o will come in and save them all from Mumm-ra's wrath, thus justifying his position as king.

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stac

Except of course, both of them are not princes. True, Tygra is a prince and the heir to the Crown. However, Lion-O is the Lord of the ThunderCats, the King.
I remember, in the last thread someone used the analogy of the Secret Service. If the Presidents bodyguard had to chose between him and the Vice-President, who do you think would be chosen?

This is certainly not an easy choice but a Cleric who would put the life of a Prince over the life of the King should not be serving in that role.

An elected office can't be compared to a given leadership position held by a royal family and bloodlines.

The real truth is, Lion-O is at fault for the whole fiasco. He made the decision to jump head first solo into the group of 3. Tygra and Cheetara of their own free choice chose to assist him after he told them not to bother.

Lion-O's decision was very reckless and bad. This choice was not made with sound logic, wisdom, or planning but on pure emotion. He still allowed his personal issues with his teammates to cloud his judgment.

This was the same pure emotion for choosing to go up that path which made them vulnerable to attack, his team mates got captured, and led to Lion-O getting killed.

So practically the show actually punished the King for his reckless decisions.

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Yep, I think Lion-o will come in and save them all from Mumm-ra's wrath, thus justifying his position as king.

Right now Tygra is following Slithe, which is just plain stupid. Even if he gives Mumm-Ra the sword he can't use it or remove the stone. Slithe is bound to meet up with the rest of the Lizard army before delivering the sword to Mumm-Ra, so he's making the same mistake Lion-O did. He didn't even have the good sense to take the Thundertank (but I guess the writers needed to leave that for Lion-O to take in order to catch up with the rest of them next episode). I'm also hoping that Mumm-Ra does a sort of reverse of the Trials on the other Thundercats, rather than confronting them with their flaws to make them stronger he ends up using them to break their spirits. Because even though Lion-O isn't perfect he's not the only one this season to screw up.

[stac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

An elected office can't be compared to a given leadership position held by a royal family and bloodlines.

Even royal bloodlines have a hierarchy. It should be pretty obvious that any capable bodyguard would give priority to a King over a Prince.

Quote:

The real truth is, Lion-O is at fault for the whole fiasco. He made the decision to jump head first solo into the group of 3. Tygra and Cheetara of their own free choice chose to assist him after he told them not to bother.

Lion-O's decision was very reckless and bad. This choice was not made with sound logic, wisdom, or planning but on pure emotion. He still allowed his personal issues with his teammates to cloud his judgment.

I happen to think that while his responses to Tygra and Cheetara were emotional, his decision was acceptable. He reasoned that freeing the lizards was the only way to keep to the goal of uniting all animals and keeping up the pressure on Mumm-Ra. The ThunderCats had already taken down two lizard battalions in the episode and Lion-O did not know that Kaynar and Addicus would be there.

Quote:

This was the same pure emotion for choosing to go up that path which made them vulnerable to attack, his team mates got captured, and led to Lion-O getting killed.

So practically the show actually punished the King for his reckless decisions.

Whether Lion-O was reckless or not is another question. You are dodging the real issue, which is Cheetara’s decision, which was emotional and tactically suicidal.

[merlin]

old lion o beat panthro, cheertra , thunderkittens, tyrra and mummra in old thundercats series
writers mix up 5 trials

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stac

I happen to think that while his responses to Tygra and Cheetara were emotional, his decision was acceptable. He reasoned that freeing the lizards was the only way to keep to the goal of uniting all animals and keeping up the pressure on Mumm-Ra. The ThunderCats had already taken down two lizard battalions in the episode and Lion-O did not know that Kaynar and Addicus would be there.

They were in a position to ambush and had the surprise advantage. Lion-O could have waited a little longer, but nope he charged them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stac

Whether Lion-O was reckless or not is another question. You are dodging the real issue, which is Cheetara’s decision, which was emotional and tactically suicidal.

Lion-O was straight out sucidal. His first decision was to go at them solo. If Cheetara and Tygra didn't assist, the fool would be dead. It was his fault and he drag them both down into it.

If Lion-O wasn't so pigheaded, he could have made use a decent ambush. Tygra has a freaking sniper rifle, he could have taken one of the three out then provide support to Lion-O and Cheetara. One dead and the other two captured or killed. Lion-O's personal issues and bad judgment blew a big opportunity to take out Mumm-ra's generals.

[stac]

I see you conveniently didn’t reply to my statement that a bodyguard would give precedence to the King over a Prince.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

They were in a position to ambush and had the surprise advantage. Lion-O could have waited a little longer, but nope he charged them.

I don’t know about any ambush or surprise advantage. You speak as though you were there. This is speculation. Besides, Slithe did seem to be quite surprised at Lion-O’s entrance.

Quote:

He was reckless. His first decision was to go at them solo. If Cheetara and Tygra didn't assist, Lion-O would be dead. It was his fault and he drags them both down into it.

Once again, you are not addressing the real issue – Cheetara’s surrender. For the sake of argument, let’s say I accept that everything was Lion-O’s fault. It still doesn’t change the fact that Cheetara made a terrible decision, it was emotional and suicidal.

Along the same lines, Tygra was equally idiotic seeing as the only thing he could do was smirk at Lion-O when Cheetara rubbed it in.

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stac

I see you conveniently didn’t reply to my statement that a bodyguard would give precedence to the King over a Prince.

Really hard for her when King Suicidal is willing to sacrifice the next guy in line.

Keeping them both alive gives them better odds at someone in the Royal Family surviving when those unsuspecting things like sickness could happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stac

I don’t know about any ambush or surprise advantage. You speak as though you were there. This is speculation. Besides, Slithe did seem to be quite surprised at Lion-O’s entrance.

http://www.thundercats.ws/news/attac...1332722171.jpg

They were on a cliff staying low and peering at a downward at the path the Lizards were traveling. For the past moments of that episode, they were setting up ambushes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stac

Once again, you are not addressing the real issue – Cheetara’s surrender. For the sake of argument, let’s say I accept that everything was Lion-O’s fault. It still doesn’t change the fact that Cheetara made a terrible decision, it was emotional and suicidal.

Along the same lines, Tygra was equally idiotic seeing as the only thing he could do was smirk at Lion-O when Cheetara rubbed it in.

He's just happy that Cheetara isn't some mindless yescat who is willing to follow a King's order's blindly because he isn't thinking straight.

The tape shows it. Lion-O is at fault for not only choosing to go solo suicidal, but he forced her on the spot to make a call.

Not all of Cheetara's powers have been fully exposed. One of them her old counterpart has is "Sixth Sense" which can conveniently be used as a plot device to explain why she surrendered. She did it to buy time because her sixth sense foretold Panthro was going to show up. If the show decides to go there. For an explanation as to why she wouldn't outright mention her sixth sense, she could consider it a curse.

[KaleRylan]

This continues to be an incredibly frustrating show.

It's great in so many ways, but every single episode does something that is so fundamentally flawed that it threatens to bring the whole show down.

In this episode:

1.The total regression of Lion-o and all of the cats becoming pricks for no real reason.

2. The fight scenes once again had everyone forget half their powers for no real reason. The Thundercats are NOT all-powerful; it would be possible for them to lose even in a well-written fight. The fact that the writers seem to think they can only lose if they magically forget half their weapons and skills is just poorly done.

3. Tygra and Cheetara are quickly becoming a perfect example of why armies don't allow fraternization. Crap like this happens. Cheetara's understandable desire to protect the one she loves leads to the enemy having an easy advantage over her.

4. The triangle itself needs to end. I am fine with Tygra and Cheetara being a couple, but if she 'always liked Tygra' then stop writing her as a tease. It's beginning to get absurd. Bring in Pumira for Lion-O, or a new character, or do something weird like having Kit and Kat get aged by something so Kit can be a love interest(THAT would be a departure from the OS), but stop writing cheetara as a giant tease. Romance yes, triangle no.

5. stop undoing previous developments. Allow Lion-o to actually grow. When he finishes these trials, he shouldn't be so perfect that you have to forget his development next time you want him to learn something. He can learn these lessons, stop being an idiot, and then learn other, NEW lessons later. These writers seem to think there is only one lesson, and Lion-o has to keep learning it over and over.

[Sining]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

You have to remember that Tygra isn't some common low level cat, he's the next one in line of the throne. One of her duties is to protect the Royal Family. It's easy to write it off as a personal choice of hers but there is also merit that this was a conflict of duties of protecting Royal Family vs. orders that risk his life.

uh-huh, so saving the life of the next-in-line vs the king is obviously following the guidelines the clerics have of 'protecting the crown' especially when the king was still free and unharmed and if they wanted to be really sure of protecting the crown, they could have just run off with lion-o to leave tygra to his fate. However, surrendering so that they could capture BOTH members of the royal family (adoptive or not), that was clearly a brilliant move to protect the crown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

2. Cheetara was completely justified in thinking the mutants might take them prisoner. They DID keep them prisoner in this very episode. If they're the cold blooded killers absolutely guaranteed to kill them instead of taking them prisoner they'd ALL be dead right now instead of just Lion-O.

Yes, they took them prisoner...to kill them later. I like how you conveniently missed out that part

[Sining]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclipse

That goes for Lion-O, actually. He could and should have used SBS in order to clarify the location of the stone before deciding to follow that trail, and didn't. He endangered the team and lost the sword because of his own decisions.

Yeah, it's hateful But that's how it was written to justify the trials.

Assuming the stone works like a tv and you can just view whatever you want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

Well it's either Lion-O made a bad call or Addicus and Kaynar are nothing more than chumps.

So the authors chose to make Addicus and Kaynar viable enemies and Lion-O to make a bad call. However, they decided to throw Cheetara under the Thundertank with that stupid decision to cover Lion-O's bad call.

Someone said it before and I'll say it again. Kaynar and Addicus can be viable enemies without the three cats looking like moron noobs in a fight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

They were in a position to ambush and had the surprise advantage. Lion-O could have waited a little longer, but nope he charged them.

you mean the part where the other two didn't want to go help the lizards? I'm sure their position would have changed in the few minutes it took the motorised convoy to pass their location. I actually remember this happening a lot while I was in the army, where grunts would dicker a lot about doing something without anyone wanting to take responsibility and then the opportunity passed, nothing happened and no one ended up having to take responsibility. Who knew tcats was so close to real life? Btw, there's also a reason why in the military there's a chain of command.

Quote:

If Lion-O wasn't so pigheaded, he could have made use a decent ambush. Tygra has a freaking sniper rifle, he could have taken one of the three out then provide support to Lion-O and Cheetara. One dead and the other two captured or killed. Lion-O's personal issues and bad judgment blew a big opportunity to take out Mumm-ra's generals.

Ah yes, the same frigging gun that Tygra didn't use until he was in close combat with the generals. For some reason, he forgot he could use it instead of his damn whip. -_- Or he could have shot slithe while Lion-O was distracting them. Or cheetara could have used superspeed to team up with lion-o or tygra to knock out one general or used her rooting staff to entangle their legs instead of their weapons. Seriously, that fight was just badly written.

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sining

uh-huh, so saving the life of the next-in-line vs the king is obviously following the guidelines the clerics have of 'protecting the crown' especially when the king was still free and unharmed and if they wanted to be really sure of protecting the crown, they could have just run off with lion-o to leave tygra to his fate. However, surrendering so that they could capture BOTH members of the royal family (adoptive or not), that was clearly a brilliant move to protect the crown.

Tygra gets killed. Then it becomes a two on three in which Cheetara and Lion-O are overpowered, defeated, and killed.

Tygra gets killed. They hold their own until Panthro shows up. He sees Tygra dead. Panthro asks what happen, Cheetara tells him about Lion-O decision that led to this point. Panthro tears into Lion-O for such a stupid decision. Things are much worse for the group after mourning the loss of Tygra. Cheetara becomes distant with Lion-O. The others develop a mistrust in Lion-O since his decision led to the death of Tygra.

Cheetara made the call of the lesser two evils.

[KurtulanSama]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

They were in a position to ambush and had the surprise advantage. Lion-O could have waited a little longer, but nope he charged them.




Lion-O was straight out sucidal. His first decision was to go at them solo. If Cheetara and Tygra didn't assist, the fool would be dead. It was his fault and he drag them both down into it.

If Lion-O wasn't so pigheaded, he could have made use a decent ambush. Tygra has a freaking sniper rifle, he could have taken one of the three out then provide support to Lion-O and Cheetara. One dead and the other two captured or killed. Lion-O's personal issues and bad judgment blew a big opportunity to take out Mumm-ra's generals.

Actually there was only 1 lizard tank and 3-4 enemy lizards in th scene. In Lion-O's point of view, they could take it down and his intentions were at the right place. If he had seen Addicus and Kaynar, he would probably lay low to gather more info. In ep 12 cats chose stealth(until Kit jumps to save Abburn) because there were too many lizards and elephants were hostages so we know Lion-O is capable to lay low when the odds are against him.

@Singe,
I told this more than enough times, Tygra is a trained warrior. Even I have enough training to dodge the fatal blow and free myself. There is more enough chance for Tygra to survive. Spears actually aren't that dangerous if you don't put enough force behind it. So kaynar would need to pull the spear back to do a decent stab. That would provide Tygra tho time he needs to dodge. After the dodge Kaynar would lose balance... so on and on...

[Sining]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

Tygra gets killed. Then it becomes a two on three in which Cheetara and Lion-O are overpowered, defeated, and killed.

Tygra gets killed. They hold their own until Panthro shows up. He sees Tygra dead. Panthro asks what happen, Cheetara tells him about Lion-O decision that led to this point. Panthro tears into Lion-O for such a stupid decision. Things are much worse for the group after mourning the loss of Tygra. Cheetara becomes distant with Lion-O. The others develop a mistrust in Lion-O since his decision led to the death of Tygra.

Cheetara made the call of the lesser two evils.

Lol, nice way to shift the issue here. Considering my quote was in response to your point that clerics are supposed to protect the royal family, your reply does NOTHING to refute the point that IF clerics really were supposed to protect the crown, they would have escaped with Lion-O and left Tygra to his fate because having the king alive and free; even with the brother dead, is better than having the king AND brother captured in very hostile enemy hands.

As for your hypothetical scenario, go write fanfiction. Here, I can do it too. Tygra doesn't get killed, Cheetara and Lion-O successfully fight off the two generals while Tygra somehow manages to escape like he did in this episode and then everyone lives happily ever after.

That's the thing about hypothetical scenarios, they're utterly stupid because anyone can come up with them and people who try to use them in an argument are usually the ones who can't come up with any CANONICAL evidence to support their own damn arguments

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sining

Someone said it before and I'll say it again. Kaynar and Addicus can be viable enemies without the three cats looking like moron noobs in a fight.

Lion-O did make the decision to charge them and he's still a noob at the leadership position.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sining

you mean the part where the other two didn't want to go help the lizards? I'm sure their position would have changed in the few minutes it took the motorised convoy to pass their location. I actually remember this happening a lot while I was in the army, where grunts would dicker a lot about doing something without anyone wanting to take responsibility and then the opportunity passed, nothing happened and no one ended up having to take responsibility. Who knew tcats was so close to real life? Btw, there's also a reason why in the military there's a chain of command.

They aren't military and if they were, Lion-O wouldn't be giving orders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sining

Ah yes, the same frigging gun that Tygra didn't use until he was in close combat with the generals. For some reason, he forgot he could use it instead of his damn whip. -_- Or he could have shot slithe while Lion-O was distracting them. Or cheetara could have used superspeed to team up with lion-o or tygra to knock out one general or used her rooting staff to entangle their legs instead of their weapons. Seriously, that fight was just badly written.

There are a number of things they could have done, if only they had a plan of attack or some strategy. Lion-O jumped first and the other two had to jump in to protect his sorry tail.

[theking]

Love it when two people on this discussion board, who have similar names start battling each other on posts. Makes things more enjoyable.

The true king of the Thundercats is the Lion-O I have as my avatar!!!

[Sining]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

They aren't military and if they were, Lion-O wouldn't be giving orders.

I can accept the two kittens not being military but for all intents and purpose, I think everyone else in the group should be considered military personnel. Panthro for obvious reasons, cheetara fought as a cleric. Both Lion-O and Tygra are trained in the sword as well.

Quote:

There are a number of things they could have done, if only they had a plan of attack or some strategy. Lion-O jumped first and the other two had to jump in to protect his sorry tail.

Ah yes, the ancient martial art school of 'planning out your every move in battle'. Who are you? Sherlock holmes? I'm sorry, did Tygra have to take time to plan how to shoot his gun? I guess all his military experience and strategic genius you guys were talking about aren't enough to allow him to shoot a gun without advance planning. Same for Cheetara. Damn, she couldn't do any advance planning so she couldn't use her super speed to run.

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sining

Lol, nice way to shift the issue here. Considering my quote was in response to your point that clerics are supposed to protect the royal family, your reply does NOTHING to refute the point that IF clerics really were supposed to protect the crown, they would have escaped with Lion-O and left Tygra to his fate because having the king alive and free; even with the brother dead, is better than having the king AND brother captured in very hostile enemy hands.

Just one left. Better hope he doesn't get sick or whatnot, that would be bad if something happened to Lion-O and he was unable to perform his duties since there would be no one else. If he's dead, that's it game over. No more Thundercat Royal Family and no more Crown.

Lion-O and Tygra both living are better odds than just Lion-O after losing Tygra.

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sining

I can accept the two kittens not being military but for all intents and purpose, I think everyone else in the group should be considered military personnel. Panthro for obvious reasons, cheetara fought as a cleric. Both Lion-O and Tygra are trained in the sword as well.

Nothing more than a King working a rebel group.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sining

Ah yes, the ancient martial art school of 'planning out your every move in battle'. Who are you? Sherlock holmes? I'm sorry, did Tygra have to take time to plan how to shoot his gun? I guess all his military experience and strategic genius you guys were talking about aren't enough to allow him to shoot a gun without advance planning. Same for Cheetara. Damn, she couldn't do any advance planning so she couldn't use her super speed to run.

Planning strategy, ambush, and all that stuff is what they were doing at the beginning of the episode. It worked and they got the advantage on the lizards with little trouble.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

They aren't military and if they were, Lion-O wouldn't be giving orders.

Actually, several of the thundercats ARE military, and they're in a military situation where, essentially, they've been drafted. And yes, Lion-o can give military orders; he's the king. That means he can give any orders he wants about anything and they have to listen. And kings aren't picked on merit, so whether he gives good orders or not is irrelevant. Unfortunate, but irrelevant.

And your weird backwards logic about how a bodyguard would protect the second-in-line to her actual charge at the detriment of the person she should be protecting is... strange. That's like saying the secret service would protect the vice president first so he can replace the president that they just failed to protect. They would not. The president takes priority. Next-in-line is just that, NEXT. That's why you would not make the vice president's wife the leader of the secret service; she would start getting funny ideas about what her job is.

Whether Cheetara's decision is proven right in the end or not (they're the heroes, it will work out) is irrelevant. You can justify it all you want, but the writers made very clear why cheetara did what she did, and it wasn't some convoluted bodyguard scheme. She didn't want her boyfriend hurt. Simple as that.

As long as she keeps behaving like this, the enemy basically has her dead to rights. This is exactly why armies don't allow fraternization.

[Sining]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

Just one left. Better hope he doesn't get sick or whatnot, that would be bad if something happened to Lion-O and he was unable to perform his duties since there would be no one else. If he's dead, that's it game over. No more Thundercat Royal Family and no more Crown.

Oh no, an illness -_- Goodness gracious what if BOTH of them fell sick at the same time. How horrible. And I'll STILL choose the 'maybe possible sickness sometime far off in a possible future' over 'getting both captured by hostile enemy' scenario. Seriously, make better arguments.

Quote:

Lion-O and Tygra both living are better odds than just Lion-O after losing Tygra.

Ideally, sure. And ideally, Thundera wouldn't have been attacked, Lion-O would have lots of bloodline brothers and Claudus and Jaga would still be alive. Unfortunately, you gotta work with the scenario you have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

Nothing more than a King working a rebel group.

A rebellion kinda needs a military hierarchy to function.

Quote:

Planning strategy, ambush, and all that stuff is what they were doing at the beginning of the episode. It worked and they got the advantage on the lizards with little trouble.

That does little to explain why you think Tygra apparently can not use a gun without doing some advance planning. What, you think he's deficient or something? I'm pretty sure he's not "special" that way

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaleRylan

Actually, several of the thundercats ARE military, and they're in a military situation where, essentially, they've been drafted. And yes, Lion-o can give military orders; he's the king. That means he can give any orders he wants about anything and they have to listen. And kings aren't picked on merit, so whether he gives good orders or not is irrelevant. Unfortunate, but irrelevant.

And your weird backwards logic about how a bodyguard would protect the second-in-line to her actual charge at the detriment of the person she should be protecting is... strange. That's like saying the secret service would protect the vice president first so he can replace the president that they just failed to protect. They would not. The president takes priority. Next-in-line is just that, NEXT.

Whether Cheetara's decision is proven right in the end or not (they're the heroes, it will work out) is irrelevant. You can justify it all you want, but the writers made very clear why cheetara did what she did, and it wasn't some convoluted bodyguard scheme. She didn't want her boyfriend hurt. Simple as that.

As long as she keeps behaving like this, the enemy basically has her dead to rights. This is exactly why armies don't allow fraternization.

They could have military backgrounds, however there is no military structure in the group.

In not a weird sense on the bodyguard, unless Cheetara is not able to protect them both.

Lion-O has made bad calls and in this recent episode. He chose the path, the group got ambushed, and he got killed as a result.

He's dead, Tygra is king, and Cheetara can protect him. All is good.

[Sining]

Yes, except the last person under Cheetara's 'protection' almost died 2x (actually died 1x) in the last 2 episodes alone. If I were Tygra, I'd make Panthro the cleric.

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sining

Oh no, an illness -_- Goodness gracious what if BOTH of them fell sick at the same time. How horrible. And I'll STILL choose the 'maybe possible sickness sometime far off in a possible future' over 'getting both captured by hostile enemy' scenario. Seriously, make better arguments.

Sure, Lion-O is currently dead. Tygra is alive, to take over. If he was sacrificed in Episode 14, then that would be it for the series.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sining

That does little to explain why you think Tygra apparently can not use a gun without doing some advance planning. What, you think he's deficient or something? I'm pretty sure he's not "special" that way

Sniper Rifle - Pull it out, arm it, get in a position, line up the shot to hit the enemy in a vital spot, stay focus on target, and fire.

Tygra can turn invisible. He could have disappeared and sniped them from a higher location. However the fight didn't give him a chance.

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

I just want to make two things clear.
1. Cheetara has NEVER disobeyed a command from Lion-O. Lion-O did not order her to keep fighting.
2. Cheetara was completely justified in thinking the mutants might take them prisoner. They DID keep them prisoner in this very episode. If they're the cold blooded killers absolutely guaranteed to kill them instead of taking them prisoner they'd ALL be dead right now instead of just Lion-O.

To go against the main objective that she in fact already committed to is disobeying. At this point the writing is just bad, the fact they took them prisoner to then later try to kill them makes no sense or maybe that shows they take no prisoners. Cheetara was being foolish to think other wise

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

I thought they only took them prisoner since Lion-o was dead and they didn't want them locating the Gauntlet/finding his body/etc.

Yeah so mumm-ra wouldn't be as angry that they lost the gauntlet they were going to give them to him but then thought to themselves why should mumm-ra have all the fun. And slithe has been wanting to eat cat soup from since ep 4