Thundercats Episode 14 New Alliances Discussion

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

I wonder if lion-o is supposed to be immortal after the trails well at least as long as he has the spirit stone

I think the guy who saw it in Ireland said the resurrection was a one time only deal.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

I said you always check on your teammate, like what cheetara did for tygra.

They argued that the SoO was more important and he was dead. I thought they should have made sure he was dead.

I've certainly had my run-ins with unhappy T/C fans. Tygra is gonna be in trouble for that decision.

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

I've said it before that Lion-O isn't perfect but I think even after everything that's happened Lion-O would have gone back for Tygra if the situation was reversed.

From what I understand they were captured for a little while after Lion-O died. They might not even know exactly where it was he died or how to get back to that specific spot.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Knowing the writers, the hits have just started.

Yeah, Jelenic has a serious hate for Lion-o.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Yeah, Jelenic has a serious hate for Lion-o.

When they said born with fire it had to be magnesium they were talking about. It just doesn't go out.

[SirSapphire]

I just think Lion-O's gonna come out of his trials as a badass worthy of the titles "Lord of the Thundercats."

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

I just think Lion-O's gonna come out of his trials as a badass worthy of the titles "Lord of the Thundercats."

That's the only thing that could make this all worth it.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

When they said born with fire it had to be magnesium they were talking about. It just doesn't go out.

And Jelenic wants 52 episodes?!? He'd better find something to do other than beat on Lion-o, if he wants that to happen.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

And Jelenic wants 52 episodes?!? He'd better find something to do other than beat on Lion-o, if he wants that to happen.

The lessons are old for me already.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

The lessons are old for me already.

Me too, I'd ask what more could they do to Lion-o, but I'm scared Jelenic would show us.

[hollowdheart]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Me too, I'd ask what more could they do to Lion-o, but I'm scared Jelenic would show us.

I don't think they could do any worse than killing him off, unless they make it permanent.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Me too, I'd ask what more could they do to Lion-o, but I'm scared Jelenic would show us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

I don't think they could do any worse than killing him off, unless they make it permanent.

Don't give them ideas.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

I don't think they could do any worse than killing him off, unless they make it permanent.

Yeah, he's watched his father murdered before his eyes, his kingdom destroyed, his people enslaved or killed, his heart broken, and now he's gonna die. All in the first season!

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Don't give them ideas.

I'm starting to think Jelenic is Mumm-ra in disguise!

[SirSapphire]

The other thing you have to keep in mind is that Lion-O's arc through the first season stick pretty close to the archetypal "Hero's Journey" with his "death" coinciding with roughly the midpoint or "abyss" prior to his transformation and atonement. In other words he's approaching his lowest point, but only so he can start going back up again.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

The other thing you have to keep in mind is that Lion-O's arc through the first season stick pretty close to the archetypal "Hero's Journey" with his "death" coinciding with roughly the midpoint or "abyss" prior to his transformation and atonement. In other words he's approaching his lowest point, but only so he can start going back up again.

I hope that is not what they are doing. This is suppose to be a kids show, they are not going to understand that.

[hollowdheart]

All the kids will see it that he got killed and the others (besides Kit) won't even go to look for his body. If that was me at that age i'd stop watching.

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

I hope that is not what they are doing. This is suppose to be a kids show, they are not going to understand that.

It's just a storytelling device, they're not meant to understand the underlying shared mythology, that's for guys like us who watch kids cartoons.

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

All the kids will see it that he got killed and the others (besides Kit) won't even go to look for his body. If that was me at that age i'd stop watching.

That never stopped kids from watching Transformers, no matter how many times they kill Prime. It's kind of a joke now.

[hollowdheart]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

That never stopped kids from watching Transformers, no matter how many times they kill Prime. It's kind of a joke now.

But Prime's a car. Lion-o's a senient cat. And little kids are going to be more upset if a animal dies, i'd assume. I know a lot of people cried with Mufasa was murdered.

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

But Prime's a car. Lion-o's a senient cat. And little kids are going to be more upset if a animal dies, i'd assume. I know a lot of people cried with Mufasa was murdered.

Have you seen Transformers? They're ALL sentient, the death of Optimus Prime wrecked a lot of kids, myself included.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

That never stopped kids from watching Transformers, no matter how many times they kill Prime. It's kind of a joke now.

The first time Prime died in the 80's movie, kids were pretty freaked out by it. There were even parents writing to Hasbro, to complain about it. It's amazing how things change, now Prime dies at least once every series.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

It's just a storytelling device, they're not meant to understand the underlying shared mythology, that's for guys like us who watch kids cartoons.

I can see them using some of it, but not the entire thing. They have missed some steps.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

Have you seen Transformers? They're ALL sentient, the death of Optimus Prime wrecked a lot of kids, myself included.

How many rebots has transformers received compared to the TCats?

[hollowdheart]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

Have you seen Transformers? They're ALL sentient, the death of Optimus Prime wrecked a lot of kids, myself included.

I know that. I watched it too, but deaths of animals makes me sadder, since i know cars aren't really sentient. I wish they were though. Plus Lion-o's been the writer's punching bag from the pilot.

[Mako Crab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

I think a lot if the audience has a VERY negative opinion of Cheetara now. Between leading Lion-o on, and her dereliction of duty, its like I said before Lion-o has no reason to trust Cheetara on any level,. Which is why I said ( much to the disdain of some posters), that logically Lion-o would be within his rights to banish her. She has become a hindrance to the group dynamics.

Yeah, that was me. And what you said, in addition to banishing her, was that you'd cheer with glee at the sight of Cheetara getting murdered. Basically, you're saying that you want to see her die because she fell in love with the wrong guy. Real classy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Yeah, Jelenic has a serious hate for Lion-o.

Oh, stop. I think Lion-O's been one of the best characters in the show. Yeah, he goes through a lot of shit, but he's a great, multi-faceted character. They wouldn't bother writing him so well if they hated him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

I just think Lion-O's gonna come out of his trials as a badass worthy of the titles "Lord of the Thundercats."

Totally.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

I can see them using some of it, but not the entire thing. They have missed some steps.

For me the problem is it comes across as forced. Lion-o is going through trial by fire, but things like Cheetara doing a complete 180 in terms of personality, come across as being done to reach a certain outcome even if it doesn't make any sense.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mako Crab

Yeah, that was me. And what you said, in addition to banishing her, was that you'd cheer with glee at the sight of Cheetara getting murdered. Basically, you're saying that you want to see her die because she fell in love with the wrong guy. Real classy.


Oh, stop. I think Lion-O's been one of the best characters in the show. Yeah, he goes through a lot of shit, but he's a great, multi-faceted character. They wouldn't bother writing him so well if they hated him.


Totally.

Actually I was joking with cmangund, the only time I was serious about the death thing, was when I said that Claudus would have had her head for surrendering in the muddle of a battle. Not for choosing Tygra.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

I know that. I watched it too, but deaths of animals makes me sadder, since i know cars aren't really sentient. I wish they were though. Plus Lion-o's been the writer's punching bag from the pilot.

Jelenic wants Lion-o to continue to have lessons, the problem though he's the only one who is forced to learn them.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

For me the problem is it comes across as forced. Lion-o is going through trial by fire, but things like Cheetara doing a complete 180 in terms of personality, come across as being done to reach a certain outcome even if it doesn't make any sense.

Agree. The thing is she might have lead him on she didn't temp him.

Well it will keep going. When she dropped her staff that was very OOC.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

jelenic wants lion-o to continue to have lessons, the problem though he's the only one who is forced to learn them.

ahmen!!

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Agree. The thing is she might have lead him on she didn't temp him.

Well it will keep going. When she dropped her staff that was very OOC.

I'll never understand the rewrite of Cheetara's personality in the last couple of episodes.

[Mako Crab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Actually I was joking with cmangund, the only time I was serious about the death thing, was when I said that Claudus would have had her head for surrendering in the muddle of a battle. Not for choosing Tygra.

Then your joke was in poor taste.

[Ravenxl7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

I'll never understand the rewrite of Cheetara's personality in the last couple of episodes.

I'll never understand why you and a select few others think her character has at all changed since the beginning of the show.

We have, however, gotten to know her better, and her true feelings were revealed. Some of you couldn't deal with the fact she chose someone other than Lion-O, and have since condemned her and everything she does at every turn.

Edit: woo, post #700...

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mako Crab

Then your joke was in poor taste.

You once accused me of taking this show too seriously, but your getting angry about comments about fictional characters. How about we just don't comment in each others post anymore. Okay?

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravenxl7

I'll never understand why you and a select few others think her character has at all changed since the beginning of the show.

We have, however, gotten to know her better, and her true feelings were revealed. Some of you couldn't deal with the fact she chose someone other than Lion-O, and have since condemned her and everything she does at every turn.

I think these debates are just going around in circles. I as well as many others have explained why we feel Cheetara has changed. Yes I do think that Cheetara led Lion-o on, but the issue is that now that she is with Tygra, she chose to surrender in the middle if a fight, because a couple of bloodthirsty killers, one of which she dealt with before (Slithe), promised her they would spare her boyfriend. It was a bad idea, as further evidenced by the fact that moments after her surrender, Lion-o who she is supposed to protect was knocked unconscious and would have been killed id not for Panthro's arrival.

[stac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravenxl7

I'll never understand why you and a select few others think her character has at all changed since the beginning of the show.

We have, however, gotten to know her better, and her true feelings were revealed. Some of you couldn't deal with the fact she chose someone other than Lion-O, and have since condemned her and everything she does at every turn.

Unlike you, some of us don’t feel the need to twist facts to fit our own version of reality.

Many of us here have repeatedly mentioned that the reason we do not put Cheetara (or the T/C relationship) on a pedestal was not because she chose Tygra but because of the manner in which the love triangle was written.

Cheetara’s characterisation was very badly handled in my opinion. You can go on assuming that Lion-O somehow “misread her signals” or maybe a sudden, out of the blue flashback without any build-up may be enough to convince you of the legitimacy of the T/C pairing. But that’s simply not good enough for me.

Want to create a love triangle? Great, just don’t wreck the characters in the process.

[theking]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

I think these debates are just going around in circles. I as well as many others have explained why we feel Cheetara has changed. Yes I do think that Cheetara led Lion-o on, but the issue is that now that she is with Tygra, she chose to surrender in the middle if a fight, because a couple of bloodthirsty killers, one of which she dealt with before (Slithe), promised her they would spare her boyfriend. It was a bad idea, as further evidenced by the fact that moments after her surrender, Lion-o who she is supposed to protect was knocked unconscious and would have been killed id not for Panthro's arrival.

She's become weak now that she gave in to her emotions, the old Cheetara was so damn cool and always in control of herself, now they just write her as a love struck naive girl. If she was her old self she would have been able to reach Tygra and save him, while still being able to disarm her enemies but now she hesitated because the man she loves was at risk. Lion-O should just learn how to fight by himself, instead of counting on others to watch his back. I mean you were raised from childhood to put your duty towards the kingdom first before anything (which is Lion-O uniting all the races against Mumm-Ra) as a cleric and now that you've fallen in love all that training etc. Just fly's out the door? That's what I find to be just so unrealistic, even though the characters aren't perfect someone should really re-write whatever they did to her character, I mean seriously.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by theking

She's become weak now that she gave in to her emotions, the old Cheetara was so damn cool and always in control of herself, now they just write her as a love struck naive girl. If she was her old self she would have been able to reach Tygra and save him, while still being able to disarm her enemies but now she hesitated because the man she loves was at risk. Lion-O should just learn how to fight by himself, instead of counting on others to watch his back. I mean you were raised from childhood to put your duty towards the kingdom first before anything (which is Lion-O uniting all the races against Mumm-Ra) as a cleric and now that you've fallen in love all that training etc. Just fly's out the door? That's what I find to be just so unrealistic, even though the characters aren't perfect someone should really re-write whatever they did to her character, I mean seriously.

Exactly, thank you. Cheetara has become an entirely different person now. And it hasn't been a change for the better.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stac

Unlike you, some of us don’t feel the need to twist facts to fit our own version of reality.

Many of us here have repeatedly mentioned that the reason we do not put Cheetara (or the T/C relationship) on a pedestal was not because she chose Tygra but because of the manner in which the love triangle was written.

Cheetara’s characterisation was very badly handled in my opinion. You can go on assuming that Lion-O somehow “misread her signals” or maybe a sudden, out of the blue flashback without any build-up may be enough to convince you of the legitimacy of the T/C pairing. But that’s simply not good enough for me.

Want to create a love triangle? Great, just don’t wreck the characters in the process.

I agree with every word.

[Mako Crab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

You once accused me of taking this show too seriously, but your getting angry about comments about fictional characters. How about we just don't comment in each others post anymore. Okay?

Those same fictional characters that you're devoting so much time to hating? Those ones? Heh.
Anyway, this debate is done. I'll see you guys in the thread for episode 15: How Cheetara Ruined Everything *This Time.*

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

I'm starting to think Jelenic is Mumm-ra in disguise!

You got it the other way around, Jelenic IS MUMM-RA HIMSELF it is his true form! Jelenic form is the disguise. Thus the personal hatred of Lion-O.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stac

Unlike you, some of us don’t feel the need to twist facts to fit our own version of reality.

Many of us here have repeatedly mentioned that the reason we do not put Cheetara (or the T/C relationship) on a pedestal was not because she chose Tygra but because of the manner in which the love triangle was written.

Cheetara’s characterisation was very badly handled in my opinion. You can go on assuming that Lion-O somehow “misread her signals” or maybe a sudden, out of the blue flashback without any build-up may be enough to convince you of the legitimacy of the T/C pairing. But that’s simply not good enough for me.

Want to create a love triangle? Great, just don’t wreck the characters in the process.

I agree. I think there were people who wanted T/C in any way they could get it.

[AdamofEternia]

i knew the love triangle plot would eventually cause a drastic negative change in the characters involved. this is why i didn't really support the romance and i hope the writers stay away from romance for now and focus on the damn main story arc.

[SirSapphire]

The thing is there are two sides to this debate and both have excellent points, but they also then to ignore the points brought up by the other side. We're also only at the halfway point in the first season, we've still got a dozen or so episodes left to see how that characters change or find out more about their backstory. Yes Tygra/Cheetarah feels forced, but I've stated before that I liked the way they revealed it, it hits you like a brick wall the same way it hits Lion-O and forces you directly into his shoes for a brief moment. We have no idea how things are going to develop. They might break up, the might not. They might break up only to decide to give it another shot. After going though the Trials I don't think Lion-O will even want Cheetarah romantically anymore, recognizing his crush as just that.

Yes Lion-O gets the lion's share of the character development (puns, LOL) but the producers stated before the show even premiered that the first season is all about Lion-O, his development and how his and other's decisions affect and change him, and the other characters won't get quite as much focus.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

You got it the other way around, Jelenic IS MUMM-RA HIMSELF it is his true form! Jelenic form is the disguise. Thus the personal hatred of Lion-O.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

I can believe it!

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

I agree. I think there were people who wanted T/C in any way they could get it.

And they got it alright. And will defend it no matter what.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamofEternia

i knew the love triangle plot would eventually cause a drastic negative change in the characters involved. this is why i didn't really support the romance and i hope the writers stay away from romance for now and focus on the damn main story arc.

This is the problem inherent with love triangles, if their not done well, you end up with the characters becoming unlikeable. And that's what's happened here.

[SirSapphire]

I've been thinking about Cheetarah's actions in the fight in "New Alliances" and a thought occurred to me: Lion-O gambles with his brother's life, but knowing what we know about the characters it's probably because he has faith that Tygra could find his way out of the situation. Cheetarah refuses to fight with Tygra held hostage because she doesn't want to risk his life that way. As much as she cares about him she doesn't have the same faith in him that Lion-O does. She doesn't have the same faith in Tygra that she does Lion-O. I think if the situation was reversed she would have kept fighting (Tygra might not) because she believes Lion-O can do anything. In this context Tygra's smile could be taken as a wry smirk of disappointment that the woman he loves doesn't believe in him the same way she does his brother.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

I've been thinking about Cheetarah's actions in the fight in "New Alliances" and a thought occurred to me: Lion-O gambles with his brother's life, but knowing what we know about the characters it's probably because he has faith that Tygra could find his way out of the situation. Cheetarah refuses to fight with Tygra held hostage because she doesn't want to risk his life that way. As much as she cares about him she doesn't have the same faith in him that Lion-O does. She doesn't have the same faith in Tygra that she does Lion-O. I think if the situation was reversed she would have kept fighting (Tygra might not) because she believes Lion-O can do anything. In this context Tygra's smile could be taken as a wry smirk of disappointment that the woman he loves doesn't believe in him the same way she does his brother.

So I guess that would mean that Cheetara doesn't know Tygra as well as she thought. That could certainly become an issue down the line.