Thundercats Ep 15 Trials of Lion-O Pt 1 Discussion

[AdamofEternia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mako Crab

Somehow I doubt all the haters will be satisfied even then. Call it a hunch.

nobody is hating, it's just that the triangle was poorly written and that's is the problem with most of the people here in this thread.

[Balgus82]

I think the biggest difference in the two arguments here is one side thinks Cheetara was teasing and leading them on, so in turn they don't trust Cheetara anymore (like Lion-O). IMO You were led to believe something that isn't true and refuse to believe it isn't true, and so you're angry.

The other side is trying to take things on a more positive note and trying (even if we sometimes fail) to come up with reasonable explanations for why things seemed the way they did to keep everyone's character intact. For example IMO Cheetara isn't bad for leading Lion-O on, because she wasn't trying to lead him on and he just misunderstood her actions.

one side is taking things at face value as they saw it, and the other is trying to come up with alternative explanations that make more sense to them.

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

You forgot the part after the ordeal before the bells rang that Lion-O talked to the Elephant Monk about the prophecy. The Elephant Monk forgot about it and goes on like it was no big deal.

You might have also missed the words Cheetara said to Tygra when they were alone and she was talking about her feelings to him. She said her feelings we not important and kept quiet 13 episodes, and now she comes out about it. There must have been something going on that would make her choose to talk about it.

Really ??? When the elephant said before the evening bells rang could be implied any time before evening. When fed-ex says a package will be delivered before 3pm doesn't mean 5 minutes before 3 pm but any time before 3pm. Had Annet's memory served him better he would say exactly what he meant. The fact tygra almost killed lion-o is what just happened, tygra's jealousy had clearly gotten out of hand and she felt she had to tell him because mr big mouth was down in the dumps and felt like crap at the end of ep 13

[stac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

I think the biggest difference in the two arguments here is one side thinks Cheetara was teasing and leading them on, so in turn they don't trust Cheetara anymore (like Lion-O). IMO You were led to believe something that isn't true and refuse to believe it isn't true, and so you're angry.

The other side is trying to take things on a more positive note and trying (even if we sometimes fail) to come up with reasonable explanations for why things seemed the way they did to keep everyone's character intact. For example IMO Cheetara isn't bad for leading Lion-O on, because she wasn't trying to lead him on and he just misunderstood her actions.

It isn’t just that Cheetara led him on (consciously or not). It was the way the triangle was written and the inconsistencies with characterisation that many here, including me, have a problem with.

I have never said that Cheetara was bad or evil or anything like that. I dislike how the writers have caused both Cheetara and Lion-O to regress significantly in terms of characterisation.

Quote:

one side is taking things at face value as they saw it, and the other is trying to come up with alternative explanations that make more sense to them.

If there are any alternative explanations that seem sound, I have yet to see them.

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

Really ??? When the elephant said before the evening bells rang could be implied any time before evening. When fed-ex says a package will be delivered before 3pm doesn't mean 5 minutes before 3 pm but any time before 3pm. Had his memory served him better he would say exactly what he meant. The fact tygra almost killed lion-o is what just happened, tygra's jealousy had clearly gotten out of hand and she felt she had to tell him because mr big mouth was down in the dumps and felt like crap at the end of ep 13

Actually both of them got out of hand. Both of them had pent up anger, Lion-O pushed it and Tygra blew up first. Tygra tried to kill Lion-O, but it worked out in the end. Then we come to episode 14 in which Lion-O was willing to sacrifice Tygra, for his no surrender.

Surprising there was no follow up for what happen at the end of 14. Unless the next episode goes into it during the Tygra trial.

I'm going to theorize alternate view of the Cheetara surrender.

Since Lion-O at the moment Cheetara surrendered had his back towards them and focused on Slyde. He didn't know Tygra was beaten, given how Tygra is better fighter than Lion-O. So he thought Kaynar was doing an empty surrender call. Lion-O says don't surrender. Cheetara surrenders because she sees Kaynar wasn't making an empty threat, which surprised Lion-O and left him open to quickly get struck down.

This would be wrong if I got the position of them messed up.

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stac

It isn’t just that Cheetara led him on (consciously or not). It was the way the triangle was written and the inconsistencies with characterisation that many here, including me, have a problem with.

I have never said that Cheetara was bad or evil or anything like that. I dislike how the writers have caused both Cheetara and Lion-O to regress significantly in terms of characterisation.



If there are any alternative explanations that seem sound, I have yet to see them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

Actually both of them got out of hand. Both of them had pent up anger, Lion-O pushed it and Tygra blew up first. Tygra tried to kill Lion-O, but it worked out in the end. Then we come to episode 14 in which Lion-O was willing to sacrifice Tygra, for his no surrender.

Surprising there was no follow up for what happen at the end of 14. Unless the next episode goes into it during the Tygra trial.

I'm going to theorize alternate view of the Cheetara surrender.

Since Lion-O at the moment Cheetara surrendered had his back towards them and focused on Slyde. He didn't know Tygra was beaten, given how Tygra is better fighter than Lion-O. So he thought Kaynar was doing an empty surrender call. Lion-O says don't surrender. Cheetara surrenders because she sees Kaynar wasn't making an empty threat, which surprised Lion-O and left him open to quickly get struck down.

This would be wrong if I got the position of them messed.

Both have pent up anger but only one went in angry and only one went on a tirade. No because he said there are still two of us would imply he knew tygra was out. Now what would be interesting would be if it was cheetara who was in tygra's situation and lion-o said keep fight hmmm i wonder but if i had to guess tygra would keep fighting

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

Both have pent up anger but only one went in angry and only one went on a tirade. No because he said there are still two of us would imply he knew tygra was out. Now what would be interesting would be if it was cheetara who was in tygra's situation and lion-o said keep fight hmmm i wonder but if i had to guess tygra would keep fighting

That would have been good. Tygra snaps at Lion-O for trying to sacrifice Cheetara and that would kill the love triangle.

How about Lion-O gets beat and the call to surrender is made, should Cheetara and Tygra keep fighting or surrender?

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stac

I have never said that Cheetara was bad or evil or anything like that. I dislike how the writers have caused both Cheetara and Lion-O to regress significantly in terms of characterisation.

maybe not you personally, but others have said as much right down to saying she'd seduced Jaga or is working with Mumm-ra.

[Balgus82]

Why is what happened in the Astral Plane being brought up?

It was Lion-O himself that said in the episode that it was the AP influencing them. Neither one of them was in their right minds during that fight.

Lion-O: "It's this place. It's making our worst memories and desires real."
Tygra: "But someone is guiding this."
Lion-O: "I'll give you one guess....Mumm-Ra."

[hollowdheart]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

Why is what happened in the Astral Plane being brought up?

It was Lion-O himself that said in the episode that it was the AP influencing them. Neither one of them was in their right minds during that fight.

Lion-O: "It's this place. It's making our worst memories and desires real."
Tygra: "But someone is guiding this."
Lion-O: "I'll give you one guess....Mumm-Ra."

Did the crew confirm they were both being manipulated by Mumm-ra? Sometimes things that are supposed to be important are brought up in the show and never expanded upon.

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

Did the crew confirm they were both being manipulated by Mumm-ra? Sometimes things that are supposed to be important are brought up in the show and never expanded upon.

No, the crew has made it clear in the past that they don't like explaining everything. They say part of the fun is coming up with your own theories. But Lion-O DID say it in the show. And we do have the scene with Mumm-Ra up in the air saying how he was a master of the AP.

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

That would have been good. Tygra snaps at Lion-O for trying to sacrifice Cheetara and that would kill the love triangle.

How about Lion-O gets beat and the call to surrender is made, should Cheetara and Tygra keep fighting or surrender?

If lion-o gets beat its clear he isn't afraid of dying so they have to keep fighting. He won't make the call to surrender so either tygra or cheetara will have to make itand if they do everyone dies

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

Why is what happened in the Astral Plane being brought up?

It was Lion-O himself that said in the episode that it was the AP influencing them. Neither one of them was in their right minds during that fight.

Lion-O: "It's this place. It's making our worst memories and desires real."
Tygra: "But someone is guiding this."
Lion-O: "I'll give you one guess....Mumm-Ra."

Unless mum-ra has tech from the movie "inception" I'd say they both were fully aware of their actions. Those memories were clearly from tygra's vantage point and who made what they desired tangible in the form of the sword of omens tygra again. Under the influence hmmm more often then not a drunk persons rant is that person true feelings unmasked. The whole ep 13 is being brought up by both sides to make said points by each sides

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

If lion-o gets beat its clear he isn't afraid of dying so they have to keep fighting. He won't make the call to surrender so either tygra or cheetara will have to make itand if they do everyone dies

Whoever made the surrender call, was dooming everyone to certain death. The moral of the story is: never trust bloodthirsty killers.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Whoever made the surrender call, was dooming everyone to certain death. The moral of the story is: never trust bloodthirsty killers.

Or the girl next door.

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Or the girl next door.

Or anyone in that fight. They were all going to lose and die. No matter if they kept fighting or surrender if Panthro didn't show up.

Thank Panthro the most trusted guy in the series and if anyone has a problem with him, he'll kick them out of the Thundertank.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

Or anyone in that fight. They were all going to lose and die. No matter if they kept fighting or surrender if Panthro didn't show up.

Thank Panthro the most trusted guy in the series and if anyone has a problem with him, he'll kick them out of the Thundertank.

That is what you believe.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

That is what you believe.

Hopefully they will not add a love interest for Panthro. The L/C/T problems are already problematic enough.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

That is what you believe.

Same to you.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

Same to you.

We agree.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Hopefully they will not add a love interest for Panthro. The L/C/T problems are already problematic enough.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

Mummra will win before the triangle is over.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Mummra will win before the triangle is over.

Holmes was right afterall, love is a chemical defect or a weakness.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Holmes was right afterall, love is a chemical defect or a weakness.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

You could pin point it more, but I would get in trouble.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Hopefully they will not add a love interest for Panthro. The L/C/T problems are already problematic enough.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

A cryogenically frozen Panthera, will emerge from centuries of stasis.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Holmes was right afterall, love is a chemical defect or a weakness.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

As Al Bundy once said "loves not only blind, its stupid"!

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

A cryogenically frozen Panthera, will emerge from centuries of stasis.

Maybe L/C/T ended up in "awe" with the Panthro/Panthera proper developing "love relationship" and they will start taking notes

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

A cryogenically frozen Panthera, will emerge from centuries of stasis.

Knowing lion-o's luck she will pick panthro.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

As Al Bundy once said "loves not only blind, its stupid"!

And Jelenic "showed" us in spades, bravo Jelenic!
_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Maybe L/C/T ended up in "awe" with the Panthro/Panthera proper developing "love relationship" and they will start taking notes

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

They can definately use all the help they can get!

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Maybe L/C/T ended up in "awe" with the Panthro/Panthera proper developing "love relationship" and they will start taking notes

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

Lion-o is mad at panthera now, because she gave him all the singals.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

They can definately use all the help they can get!

You could say lion-o did.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Lion-o is mad at panthera now, because she gave him all the singals.

She wasn't whispering in his ear was she???

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

She wasn't whispering in his ear was she???

She kissed him on the lips.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

She kissed him on the lips.

Dang it! How does Lion-o keep misreading these obvious signs of encouragement?

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Lion-o is mad at panthera now, because she gave him all the singals.

Pantera "forgot" about all of her signals to Lion-O after seeing Panthro's "Manly Features"

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Pantera "forgot" about all of her signals to Lion-O after seeing Panthro's "Manly Features"

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

She was tired of short guys.

[Singe]

Well he always has Snarf. *Lion-O breaks down and cries.*

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

Well he always has Snarf. *Lion-O breaks down and cries.*

Snarf kicked him to the curb for kit and kat.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

Well he always has Snarf. *Lion-O breaks down and cries.*

Snarf maybe has his own agenda too...
Like Stormbringer, L08e16o and me have discussed it way back.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Snarf maybe has his own agenda too...
Like Stormbringer, L08e16o and me have discussed it way back.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

The triangle starts and ends with him.

[KaleRylan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

I think the biggest difference in the two arguments here is one side thinks Cheetara was teasing and leading them on, so in turn they don't trust Cheetara anymore (like Lion-O). IMO You were led to believe something that isn't true and refuse to believe it isn't true, and so you're angry.

The other side is trying to take things on a more positive note and trying (even if we sometimes fail) to come up with reasonable explanations for why things seemed the way they did to keep everyone's character intact. For example IMO Cheetara isn't bad for leading Lion-O on, because she wasn't trying to lead him on and he just misunderstood her actions.

one side is taking things at face value as they saw it, and the other is trying to come up with alternative explanations that make more sense to them.

You are basically right, minus one point. The writers have said REPEATEDLY that this is a love triangle. All those scenes that people are saying were meant to depict a romance between Lion-o and Cheetara that wasn't really there? That is EXACTLY what they were doing.

The writers put in romantic scenes, and then pulled a switch to create drama. But they did it poorly and wrecked every character involved by doing so.

One of the fundamental reasons this argument is unlikely to go anywhere is that one side is past examining the scenes and has already started blaming the writers, while the other is still trying to figure out the character's motivations.

Despite the argument being one topic, the two sides are arguing about two completely different things.

[Singe]

Lion-O: Sword of Omens give me Sight Beyond Sight. *Mind Freak* That's the stuff.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

She was tired of short guys.

Hey now! When Lion-o hits his growth spurt, he'll be as tall as he was in the OS.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

The triangle starts and ends with him.

Well, snarf IS Jelenic's insider pet afterall.
_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Hey now! When Lion-o hits his growth spurt, he'll be as tall as he was in the OS.

Then Panthera will "forget" Panthro and "go back" to Lion-O. However Panthro is pissed now, Jelenics's style in romance.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Hey now! When Lion-o hits his growth spurt, he'll be as tall as he was in the OS.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Then Panthera will "forgot" Panthro and "go back" to Lion-O. However Panthro is pissed now, Jelenics's style in romance.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

Lion-o better run.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Well, snarf IS Jelenic's insider pet afterall.
_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

You knew he was up to something.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Then Panthera will "forgot" Panthro and "go back" to Lion-O. However Panthro is pissed now, Jelenics's style in romance.

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

And the soap opera continues... I wonder when Claudus' long lost child shows up?

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Whoever made the surrender call, was dooming everyone to certain death. The moral of the story is: never trust bloodthirsty killers.

even if she had chosen to fight and Kaynar killed Tygra they would've been outnumbered and outmatched.