Thundercats Ep 19 The Pit Discussion

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sining

Okay, where IS this talk about Lion-O wanting an army of dogs coming from? They're in town to get SUPPLIES, not recruit the dogs to their cause.

Episode 7 started it. Lion-o learns that he must unite all the animals against Mumm-ra's army. He's there for supplies now and he has plans to come back to recruit them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sining

Panthro's advice was 'Leave her there'. Seriously, if that's your stance, that Lion-O should accept Panthro's advice to leave her there as a slave and pit fighter, then sure. He could have listened to Panthro's advice.

Lion-O could have this, Lion-O could have that. Too bad NO ONE other than Panthro gave any opinion so the choices were 'lets save her' or 'leave her'

You also have to remember that Lion-O has other important priorities like the stones and building alliances. Building an alliance with the Dogs for his army was a bigger priority to Panthro's mind. Plus he knew somethings about the town and Pit that the others didn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sining

Shrugs. I'm not saying whether this is right or correct but basically, people need to learn to stick up for themselves instead of blaming others. Not to mention Lion-O wasn't even the king during the fall of the kingdom. That was Claudus. But to put everything on one guy is ridiculous. But I suppose that's indicative of the cats mentality, where strong = good = king.

When one is a slave locked in a dark cell fighting for their freedom, think happy thoughts.

Actually, Lion-O was King during the fall. He was made King right before they escaped and a whole day hasn't passed since the attack.

If Lion-O doesn't want to get blamed for falling short the expectations and duties the people expect of the King, then he should stop being one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sining

The TC kingdom also showed no signs of slavery. Of racism and prejudice yes, but not slavery. Are you going to say 'but maybe there was slavery in Thundera?' Maybe there wasn't also. Stop using hypothetical scenarios.

Btw, so from your answer I'm assuming you're saying yes, Lion-O should align himself with slavers to fight mumm-ra?

Some forms of slavery could be using prisoners like the Lizards to do work and such.

Lion-O and the Dogs will join up. Panthro is buddies with Dobo. There will some pressure or persuasion to end slavery there.

[Epitaph]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

Episode 7 started it. Lion-o learns that he must unite all the animals against Mumm-ra's army. He's there for supplies now and he has plans to come back to recruit them.


You also have to remember that Lion-O has other important priorities like the stones and building alliances. Building an alliance with the Dogs for his army was a bigger priority to Panthro's mind. Plus he knew somethings about the town and Pit that the others didn't.

Not being completely outnumbered in the Dogs' town was probably foremost on Panthro's mind. He spoke up because he knew the town, and yes, because making an enemy of the town's leader was probably a bad idea.

But Cheetara and Tygra stayed silent, which is unusual. Cheetara even told Panthro to stay out of it. Maybe they were as angry about a cat being held as a slave, but I think it's more likely they're learning to let Lion-O make the decisions. As evidenced by Tygra's brief stint as King, Lion-O does usually end up making decisions that work out. But more importantly, Lion-O is King. At the end of the day, how they handle things like this is ultimately up to him. For better or worse.

There's nothing wrong with offering an opinion, but they can't fight every decision he makes, much as they have been. Lion-O needs to make his own decisions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

When one is a slave locked in a dark cell fighting for their freedom, think happy thoughts.

Actually, Lion-O was King during the fall. He was made King right before they escaped and a whole day hasn't passed since the attack.

If Lion-O doesn't want to get blamed for falling short the expectations and duties the people expect of the King, then he should stop being one.

I believe he was King from the moment Claudus died, if only in name. It's no surprise that he's being blamed for not doing anything...the other cats have no idea what he's been up to, but a King's responsibility to look out for his people. So what if he really couldn't do anything, if he was still on the run himself? We criticize politicians' decisions, regardless of how much we know about what's really going on. It's natural to blame the guy in charge.

Some of his people probably blame him for the fall of Thundara in the first place. Remember, he advocated setting the lizards free, right before they attacked. Most may not know about Grune's betrayal, unless he was helping round up the slaves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

Some forms of slavery could be using prisoners like the Lizards to do work and such.

Lion-O and the Dogs will join up. Panthro is buddies with Dobo. There will some pressure or persuasion to end slavery there.

The lizards in episode one explicitly said that they were captured as slaves.

Fighting in the Coliseum in Rome was considered an honour, wasn't it? They could keep the coliseum running, if only on a 'hey, you want to fight? Go for it' basis.

But maybe they'll come up with some new forms of entertainment once the Cats no longer have the lion's share (couldn't resist, I'm sorry) of the resources.

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epitaph

Not being completely outnumbered in the Dogs' town was probably foremost on Panthro's mind. He spoke up because he knew the town, and yes, because making an enemy of the town's leader was probably a bad idea.

But Cheetara and Tygra stayed silent, which is unusual. Cheetara even told Panthro to stay out of it. Maybe they were as angry about a cat being held as a slave, but I think it's more likely they're learning to let Lion-O make the decisions. As evidenced by Tygra's brief stint as King, Lion-O does usually end up making decisions that work out. But more importantly, Lion-O is King. At the end of the day, how they handle things like this is ultimately up to him. For better or worse.

There's nothing wrong with offering an opinion, but they can't fight every decision he makes, much as they have been. Lion-O needs to make his own decisions.




I believe he was King from the moment Claudus died, if only in name. It's no surprise that he's being blamed for not doing anything...the other cats have no idea what he's been up to, but a King's responsibility to look out for his people. So what if he really couldn't do anything, if he was still on the run himself? We criticize politicians' decisions, regardless of how much we know about what's really going on. It's natural to blame the guy in charge.

Some of his people probably blame him for the fall of Thundara in the first place. Remember, he advocated setting the lizards free, right before they attacked. Most may not know about Grune's betrayal, unless he was helping round up the slaves.




The lizards in episode one explicitly said that they were captured as slaves.

Fighting in the Coliseum in Rome was considered an honour, wasn't it? They could keep the coliseum running, if only on a 'hey, you want to fight? Go for it' basis.

But maybe they'll come up with some new forms of entertainment once the Cats no longer have the lion's share (couldn't resist, I'm sorry) of the resources.

Cheetara and Tygra not talking much is the fault of the writers. Even a couple of episodes in Season One had them in the background saying a few lines or nothing.

[Balgus82]

I think Panthro said to leave her because he thought she could take care of herself. Remember he used to be in that same arena so he know's exactly what she's up against.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

I think Panthro said to leave her because he thought she could take care of herself. Remember he used to be in that same arena so he know's exactly what she's up against.

Just to toss it out there, she was one battle away from winning her freedom on her own. She's not helpless.

99 battles, 99 wins. Girl has some serious skills.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chique

Just to toss it out there, she was one battle away from winning her freedom on her own. She's not helpless.

99 battles, 99 wins. Girl has some serious skills.

Was this confirmed?

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

I think Panthro said to leave her because he thought she could take care of herself. Remember he used to be in that same arena so he know's exactly what she's up against.

Then they wouldn't known about the other cats being enslaved if they would've bought their supplies and left.

[Singe]

That is a very important piece of info, exactly how many arena battles has she been in and won?

If it was a low number, then she would have been more open to escape. However at a higher number closer to 100 would have put her more to refusing the help of Lion-o since she has a sure fire path to her freedom.

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

That is a very important piece of info, exactly how many arena battles has she been in and won?

If it was a low number, then she would have been more open to escape. However at a higher number closer to 100 would have put her more to refusing the help of Lion-o since she has a sure fire path to her freedom.

I'm assuming she's about halfway, that puts her in there long enough for her to lose much of her hope, but not so long she's lost all of it and Lion-O's refusal to fight would have no effect on her.

[Chique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

I'm assuming she's about halfway, that puts her in there long enough for her to lose much of her hope, but not so long she's lost all of it and Lion-O's refusal to fight would have no effect on her.

Looking for it now. Hmm, wonder where I heard the 99 battles thing at...sorry

[Sining]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

When one is a slave locked in a dark cell fighting for their freedom, think happy thoughts.

Actually, Lion-O was King during the fall. He was made King right before they escaped and a whole day hasn't passed since the attack.

If Lion-O doesn't want to get blamed for falling short the expectations and duties the people expect of the King, then he should stop being one.

You mean he was made King after most of their army was already wiped out, the clerics were almost all dead and Claudus was dead as well. I'm sorry, what was he supposed to have been able to do in that instant?

It's not even that Lion-O doesn't want to get blamed, it's that I don't think he should be blamed for 'failing' his people when he basically inherited a shitstorm without any real power to it.

Quote:

Some forms of slavery could be using prisoners like the Lizards to do work and such.

Lion-O and the Dogs will join up. Panthro is buddies with Dobo. There will some pressure or persuasion to end slavery there.

So slavers are ok

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

I think Panthro said to leave her because he thought she could take care of herself. Remember he used to be in that same arena so he know's exactly what she's up against.

Eh, the same arena where they will partner you up with someone until you become friends with them and have you fight a death-match with them. It's so understanding of Panthro to want to leave her there -_-

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sining

You mean he was made King after most of their army was already wiped out, the clerics were almost all dead and Claudus was dead as well. I'm sorry, what was he supposed to have been able to do in that instant?

It's not even that Lion-O doesn't want to get blamed, it's that I don't think he should be blamed for 'failing' his people when he basically inherited a shitstorm without any real power to it.

So slavers are ok

He could have given the crown over to Tygra at anytime.

Pretty much Lion-O aka The King escapes while his people are captured and they don't hear a peep from him for however much time has passed since the fall of the kingdom. From the enslaved perspective it looks bad for Lion-O. Where's the King? What's taking him so long? Hurry up since things are looking worse. My *family member or friend* died while the King took his sweet time.

Lion-O should receive some scorn, Pumyra has a legit complaint about Lion-O taking forever to get there and all he does is make excuses for being late. While she was a slave since the fall of the kingdom this guy was throwing a hissy fit over Cheetara picking Tygra.

On the slavers part, a number of civilizations dipped their toes in some form of slavery. Prisons for example.

[Sining]

Which wouldn't stop Tygra being blamed either. I don't think you get the fact that I said it's not Lion-O that doesn't want to be blamed but that I DON'T think he should be blamed. Lion-O is the type of person who'll blame himself anyway. Whether he does or not is his own issue. I just don't think people have a valid issue blaming their leaders for everything that happens because to me, that's the same thing as being a person who basically goes 'the devil made me do it' which is pretty much the type of people I hate.

I'll also note that nobody else says 'hey, let's go back, check for slaves or anything left of our people' as well. For a party that seems very willing to give their opinions whenever they want, that's just telling.

Yes, because prisoners are the same as slaves. -_- Seriously lol.

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

He could have given the crown over to Tygra at anytime.

Pretty much Lion-O aka The King escapes while his people are captured and they don't hear a peep from him for however much time has passed since the fall of the kingdom. From the enslaved perspective it looks bad for Lion-O. Where's the King? What's taking him so long? Hurry up since things are looking worse. My *family member or friend* died while the King took his sweet time.

Lion-O should receive some scorn, Pumyra has a legit complaint about Lion-O taking forever to get there and all he does is make excuses for being late. While she was a slave since the fall of the kingdom this guy was throwing a hissy fit over Cheetara picking Tygra.

On the slavers part, a number of civilizations dipped their toes in some form of slavery. Prisons for example.

From the enslaved perspective some might have seen the thunderian army fall to the lizard tech and pass that info among the other enslaved cats and now wonder if there is any hope. Pumyra may have realized that she was wrong she just had a tygra moment .

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sining

Eh, the same arena where they will partner you up with someone until you become friends with them and have you fight a death-match with them. It's so understanding of Panthro to want to leave her there -_-

And the same arena he was able to escape from. Maybe he figures if he can do it so can she.

[Balgus82]

I can see why Lion-O is being blamed. I don't think he deserves to be blamed.

This was an emotional response from Pumyra, not necessarily a logical one. She saw things from her own point of view (like so many people do) and not from Lion-O's. He doesn't really deserve the blame, but it's not hard to imagine Thunderians blaming him anyway. People always blame the people in power. Heck look at the people who blame Obama for gas prices when he has no real control over that.

[SirSapphire]

The other thing about this post-Trials Lion-O is that he will take the blame for something regardless of whether he's responsible for it or not, and this is especially evident in his conflict with Pumyra. The only two arguments he offers to her are "I did what I had to do" and "I can't change the past" and while both are completely true they do not absolve him of any guilt, even in his own mind.

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

I can see why Lion-O is being blamed. I don't think he deserves to be blamed.

This was an emotional response from Pumyra, not necessarily a logical one. She saw things from her own point of view (like so many people do) and not from Lion-O's. He doesn't really deserve the blame, but it's not hard to imagine Thunderians blaming him anyway. People always blame the people in power. Heck look at the people who blame Obama for gas prices when he has no real control over that.

So far Lion-O has three things he can receive scorn for.

1. Asking Claudis to free the lizards before the lizard attack. It looks bad for him in the eyes of the people.

2. The amount of time that past before Lion-O attempt any action of freeing his people.

3. Some people will also hold it against him for fleeing and leaving the people behind.

Also from Pumyra's perspective, when she asked Lion-O about why it took him so long; she doesn't know all the stuff that happen before hand. So to her Lion-O sounded like he was making excuses for his pathetic response time.

Most of them don't know he's the King and just remember that weak sauce prince.

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sining

Which wouldn't stop Tygra being blamed either. I don't think you get the fact that I said it's not Lion-O that doesn't want to be blamed but that I DON'T think he should be blamed. Lion-O is the type of person who'll blame himself anyway. Whether he does or not is his own issue. I just don't think people have a valid issue blaming their leaders for everything that happens because to me, that's the same thing as being a person who basically goes 'the devil made me do it' which is pretty much the type of people I hate.

I'll also note that nobody else says 'hey, let's go back, check for slaves or anything left of our people' as well. For a party that seems very willing to give their opinions whenever they want, that's just telling.

Yes, because prisoners are the same as slaves. -_- Seriously lol.

People in a position of power are held to a higher standard compared to the rest, unless they are Tyrants.

Lion-O can be blamed for the amount of time that past before any attempt of freeing his people. That's was one of the main points of her problem with him.

The last thing some will remember is that Lion-O went against his people to defend the lizards, embrassed Claudis, and some time after that the lizards attacked.

[stormbringer]

I wonder if many of the captured cats even realize Lion-o is still alive?

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

I wonder if many of the captured cats even realize Lion-o is still alive?

Some may have seen him and tygra escape after the lizard gave then the key but if they believe him to be so daft why would they look to him to be the one to save them especially with claudis dead, jaga and panthro missing and presumed dead and grune turned traitor who do they really think is going to save them

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

So far Lion-O has three things he can receive scorn for.

1. Asking Claudis to free the lizards before the lizard attack. It looks bad for him in the eyes of the people.

2. The amount of time that past before Lion-O attempt any action of freeing his people.

3. Some people will also hold it against him for fleeing and leaving the people behind.

Also from Pumyra's perspective, when she asked Lion-O about why it took him so long; she doesn't know all the stuff that happen before hand. So to her Lion-O sounded like he was making excuses for his pathetic response time.

Most of them don't know he's the King and just remember that weak sauce prince.

I'd think it would be worse for panthro because to most of them it was panthro that killed claudis so they may wonder if that is really panthro or mumm-ra again.

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

I'd think it would be worse for panthro because to most of them it was panthro that killed claudis so they may wonder if that is really panthro or mumm-ra again.

Well Pumyra didn't throw a fit at Panthro so she must have learned some things about him from The Pit.

The slaves might know some things by rumors or gossip

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

I'd think it would be worse for panthro because to most of them it was panthro that killed claudis so they may wonder if that is really panthro or mumm-ra again.

The only people who were there when that happened was Lion-O and Tygra. And even if some random Thunderian witnessed it Mumm-Ra immediately changed back to his normal mummy self after he stabbed Claudus so they would've seen that too.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

Some may have seen him and tygra escape after the lizard gave then the key but if they believe him to so daft why would they look to him to be the one to save them especially with claudis dead, jaga and panthro missing and presumed dead and grune turned traitor who do they really think is going to save them

Good point. If they thought Lion-o was a joke, why would they be expecting him to rescue them in the first place?

[Sining]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

And the same arena he was able to escape from. Maybe he figures if he can do it so can she.

Because he knows Pumyra so well...wait, he doesn't. Panthro's like an elite general who escaped from the pit. He doesn't even know what level Pumyra is, whether she's a normal soldier, a better than average fighter, a good fighter, etc. Plus whether she has the other skills necessary to escape.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

I can see why Lion-O is being blamed. I don't think he deserves to be blamed.

I can see why as well. I just think it's a BS reason to blame Lion-O. There's legitimate reasons to blame people in power and there's 'imagonna blame you for everything bad' kind of reasoning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

Well Pumyra didn't throw a fit at Panthro so she must have learned some things about him from The Pit.

The slaves might know some things by rumors or gossip

She learned that he and dobby had a serious bromance going until Panthro ditched dobby one day without even a by-word.

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sining

Because he knows Pumyra so well...wait, he doesn't. Panthro's like an elite general who escaped from the pit. He doesn't even know what level Pumyra is, whether she's a normal soldier, a better than average fighter, a good fighter, etc. Plus whether she has the other skills necessary to escape.

Well as to one of your points, he knew how good a fighter she was because
1. they're actually advertising her fights. they wouldn't do that with bad fighters
2. he says it after watching her fight. so he saw how she fights.

[Sining]

Assuming solely being a good fighter is enough to escape. Unless he's expecting her to win all 100 fights but considering he hasn't seen all the competition yet in the arena, I have no idea how he can confidently assume she will win all 100 fights. There's an old chinese saying, there's always a taller mountain

[Epitaph]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Good point. If they thought Lion-o was a joke, why would they be expecting him to rescue them in the first place?

If they've heard through the grape vine that he's alive, it's possible they've heard he's been making waves against Mumm-Ra. So from the point of view of a captured Thundarian, 'why hasn't he come for us yet'? They may be unaware that he didn't know they were alive.

Besides, they're enslaved by tyrants. Working until they die. Rationality probably isn't at an all-time high right now.

Regardless of whether or not Lion-O deserves some or all of the blame, they will hold him accountable until he rescues them, and he will feel guilty for not doing it sooner.

Then we'll storm Mt. Plun-darr and wreak some unholy havoc on Mumm-Ra's plans in a way that probably reveals another plot point

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singe

Well Pumyra didn't throw a fit at Panthro so she must have learned some things about him from The Pit.

The slaves might know some things by rumors or gossip

She didn't get a chance to. If lion-o sent panthro to go break her out she would've yelled at him too because he was one of the greatest warriors in thundera. It would depend on if the thunderian slaves tie into mumm-ra's part in the story

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

The only people who were there when that happened was Lion-O and Tygra. And even if some random Thunderian witnessed it Mumm-Ra immediately changed back to his normal mummy self after he stabbed Claudus so they would've seen that too.

So they'll be wondering if thats mumm-ra disguised as panthro since everyone supposedly thinks panthro is dead

[Singe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

She didn't get a chance to. If lion-o sent panthro to go break her out she would've yelled at him too because he was one of the greatest warriors in thundera. It would depend on if the thunderian slaves tie into mumm-ra's part in the story

Doubtful Panthro would follow through with a go down there and break her out of jail order. He was the first to point out to the group to be cautious against making the dogs angry and into enemies.

Maybe a Panthro talk to Dobo to see if we could come to an agreement to release her quicker.

[RedAlert Rescue]

I thought this was a fairly decent episode.

I enjoyed Rattaro but thought perhaps he might have had a more forceful voice talent than he did. I guess they made him sound cultured so the other rat could sound well more scavanish.

If I was not so turned off by the glossy semi-inflexible plastic Bandai use I'd like a toy of some the Rats.

Shame Bandai are pretty terrible at making actionfigures they proably need to get some new designers and use different materials - using Power Rangers style engineering on Thundercats neither suits the style of the fun factor they should have (but don't) they feel like a throw back to 80s Kenner figures - they are a representation of the character rather than an embodiment of them.

Perhaps I just need to hope one day sideshow Collectables or someone like that will be allowed to make super premium version of the characters, and I can overlook the slight mediocrity of many current Thundercats toys.

I do feel it's a shame though as the Original figures especially ones like The Snowman, Rattaro, or Slyth still look fantastic (limited joints or not) the current ones seem like they made them down to a very low cost and didn't give any consideration that if they'd done a better job they could have had a really appeal to both the real youngsters they'd like to appeal to and adult collectors.

I fully intended to go completist on the TC toyline but I'm finding it difficult to do so when the show and toyline seem at odds with each other.

[vantheman77]

I wonder if this episode was loosely based on the Thundercats comic storyline, Dogs of War, where Cheetara was undergoing similar things that Pumyra went through here and never forgave Lion-O for it.

[AnonymousIncognito]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vantheman77

I wonder if this episode was loosely based on the Thundercats comic storyline, Dogs of War, where Cheetara was undergoing similar things that Pumyra went through here and never forgave Lion-O for it.

Actually there is a lot of this reboot that screams WS comic.

Dobo and Doberlord being pretty much twins, Pumyra's reaction to Lion-O being akin to Cheetara's, the fact that Panthro does just about nothing, the confusing character pairings that make no logical sense, the scattered and inconsistant storylines.

I'm actually waiting for G-Force and/or Super-Man to arrive.