Thundercats Episode 14 New Alliances Discussion

[Balgus82]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stac

- Cheetara’s decision was an emotionally motivated, knee-jerk reaction (“I need to stick with him.”). She disregarded her own advice about “sticking together” and undermined Lion-O authority on the battlefield, right in front of the enemy.

How is letting one of your teammates to die "sticking together?"


Maybe it was an emotionally motivated decision. I wouldn't deny that. But honestly do you expect the characters to be perfect?


Btw I agree that Lion-O was in the right in wanting to free the lizards. But I don't think he went about it the right way. He rushed in without a plan. That previous battle at the beginning of the episode they won by having a plan and working together.

Lion-O himself thought it was too dangerous to involve the twins in freeing them, when he let them be bait before, so to me that means he thought the second situation was more dangerous than the first.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

I like to know if mummra has learned how to break the spell (Cheetara)?

Well if push came to shove, we know all Mumm-ra would have to do, is grab Tygra and force Cheetara to undo the spell.

[Balgus82]

I don't think Cheetara even knows how to undo the spell. We haven't seen her use any magic at all besides the magic connected to her staff. Jaga could shoot lightning out of his hands and more.

[SirSapphire]

This version of Mumm-Ra doesn't appear to be able to control someone against their will (otherwise things would be a lot easier for him), true he does force Jaga into revealing the location of the tower of omens, but that's only after Jaga is already, essentially, dead and he's basically squeezing the information out of his soul. and he's and as far as manipulation goes it seems he can only enhance feelings that are already there. He can enhance the brothers resentment of one another and drive them to fight but he cannot make one kill the other because that desire simply doesn't exist within them.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Well if push came to shove, we know all Mumm-ra would have to do, is grab Tygra and force Cheetara to undo the spell.

[SirSapphire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

How is letting one of your teammates to die "sticking together?"

It's been mentioned several times that Lion-O probably thought Tygra would have been able to find his way out. He's still gambling with his brother's life (which is pretty irresponsible) but it's because he has faith in Tygra.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

It's been mentioned several times that Lion-O probably thought Tygra would have been able to find his way out. He's still gambling with his brother's life (which is pretty irresponsible) but it's because he has faith in Tygra.

I think lion-o thought tygra could hold his own, he should know.

[stac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

How is letting one of your teammates to die "sticking together?"

Letting one of their teammates die? How do you know for certain that Tygra would die? You are simply speculating.

My turn to do some speculating. Knowing Tygra’s character so far, I‘d venture that he would have acted in the same way Lion-O did had the roles been reversed.

Quote:

Maybe it was an emotionally motivated decision. I wouldn't deny that. But honestly do you expect the characters to be perfect?

I don’t expect them to be perfect. Though, I dislike how the writers have characterised Cheetara and the consequences of her decision are too serious to ignore.

Quote:

Btw I agree that Lion-O was in the right in wanting to free the lizards. But I don't think he went about it the right way. He rushed in without a plan. That previous battle at the beginning of the episode they won by having a plan and working together.

Lion-O himself thought it was too dangerous to involve the twins in freeing them, when he let them be bait before, so to me that means he thought the second situation was more dangerous than the first.

True, he did not have a plan. However, he (and the others) had become pretty experienced at taking down lizard battalions – the cats had already taken down 2 of them in the episode. I believe his decision in this case was justifiable. He seemed to be skilled enough to manage the feat.

[Sining]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

Tygra pulled Lion-O out. And even if Lion-O climbed back up on his own Tygra could've easily knocked him down again.

And Drunk driving is not the same because when you driving drunk you're actually choosing to drink and drive. Tygra neither chose to be influenced or knew he was being influenced until after he came to his senses.

I'm sorry but even if I choose to push someone over a cliff in a fit of anger/rage/whatever but I suddenly came to and tried to help him immediately, it STILL doesn't make me any less guilty of attempted homicide. People who use the 'oh but he came back to get help' argument to excuse near murder are unbelievable. It doesn't mean Tygra isn't an attempted murderer, he just had an attack of conscience but apparently the trait is still in him

Take responsibility for your actions.

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

I don't know if that is there goal? For me, an epic would have started with episode one and them over coming the odds. The way cheetara is siding with lion-o, I would think that cheetara would've went to tygra in the begining.

If that is what they were going for, I would've rather them leave lion-o out of it.

See, that is what is werid. I wouldn't think cheetara would abadon her duty for love. She is disgracing Jaga.

Gosh the flower, I don't even want to go there.

Especially since clerics fight to the death as indicated in ep 2 so she further proves she is unfit for her position

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

Who is to say that Tygra and Cheetarah stay together though? We know that in "Trials" Tygra is forced to take leadership of the group and they decide to go after the sword, while Lion-O would probably have gone after their fallen comrade, just so he could be sure. Tygra is more hard-hearted than his brother and isn't as focused on the bigger picture as Lion-O is and he may end up being too hard on the other Thundercats or unable to take his failures in stride like Lion-O can (since he's won almost everything he wanted). He might not be able to handle criticism as well either since he was always told how wonderful he was. All of this could lead to him snapping at or taking his frustrations out on his teammates when they fail to live up to his expectations, which could damage his relationship with Cheetarah. I'm not saying it will happen or even that I want it to, it's just a possibility based on what we know about the characters and the teasing nature of the show's creators.

Its clear lion-o would go back for a fallen friend as he went back to try and save panthro from drowning

[ChazWolf]

Interesting episode,
In my option this episode is showing how being alone is starting to wear them all down. The love triangle is already getting very old and annoying, it shouldn't be a major plot point but it happens when you have 2 brothers after the same girl. She is going to side with her love over her duty.

Pantro's arms I don't like the starchy part, I hope that gets removed, it looks silly.

The Tank too seems too large and messy now, not the small fast sneaky thing a cat would look for. But thats just my feelings.

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

That's not the way I took it. If they had kept fighting what then? Even if they had won Tygra would've been killed. Do you think for a second Kaynar would've hesitated to do it? And if they had lost they would all be dead anyway and Cheetara's decision wouldn't have mattered in the slightest.

As it stands If Cheetara hadn't stopped fighting Tygra would be dead right now. Why is that so difficult to understand?

Kaynar has made the classic bad guy mistake by not killing tygra right away, and had lion-o and cheetara kept fighting he would've most likely jumped in and left tygra by himself. Cheetara's decision end the fight sooner with zero chance of surviving. With a little luck there is always a chance of winning and luck only come and lasts as long as someones courage and bravery holds up and what cheetara did was cowardly. And on top of that she said "I have to stick with him" as opposed to panthro saying that they all have to stick togather so again I question tygra and cheetara's commitment to the cause

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSapphire

In the second half of the Trials Lion-O will be forced to face his own self-doubt with takes the form of Tygra (although it may morph into his father at some point). Lion-O has spent much of his life being told he's not good enough and that his interests are wrong and he has to prove them wrong. Unlike the other trials with required cunning and could have "work around" solutions this will be the one he has to face head-on and the old-fashioned way. He must defeat his brother and his doubt and prove why the Sword chose him.

He'll come out of it a better person and won't have to defeat the real-life Tygra because upon his return his brother will have gone through his own trials and learned why Lion-O was chosen and the two brothers will finally begin supporting one another.

Claudis may not be the form of lion-o's self doubt as that door was closed when Claudis bowed to him and later said he was proud of him before he died.

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

Slavery. We already know from the crew that Mumm-Ra kept some of the survivors from Thundera as slaves. And I would think seeing their king as a slave beside them would keep the slaves morale low.

Not if some know the prophecy about lion-o and keep the hopes of him freeing them. Plus lion-o working as a slave is dangerous because he can incite those willing to fight to fight and thats like giving him an entire thunderian army kind of like spartacus

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

If that happens, I will quit the show. I feel like the whole L/C/T would be a waste.

My theroy is that legacy was a foreshadowing of what is going to happen.

If you don't mind, yeah.

Legacy may still be a foreshadowing but cheetara is shown to be unfit for her position so maybe pumyra will take her spot. I guess because pumyra is a puma and the original makers of the sword were cougars/puma making pumyra the new cleric or pumyra might look like panthera seeing how cougars are multicolored

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balgus82

I have done no such thing. I never once even alluded to a motive for Lion-O wanting to continue to fight.

And btw if Tygra really wanted to kill Lion-O then Lion-O would be dead right now. No one was there to stop him.

And tygra would've died immediately after by the hands of mumm-ra. Stabbed in the back like poor claudis and falling into a pit he just kicked lion-o into

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

I'm also talking about when they were little.

A drunk mans word are a sober mans thoughts so the intention was always there and there is really no defending tygra actions in that scene so now thats strike two on tygra I'm awaiting to see strike three

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

Especially since clerics fight to the death as indicated in ep 2 so she further proves she is unfit for her position

See, that is what is crazy.

I never saw a girl in Jr High fall in love with someone. It was kid love and in a couple months they were with someone else.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

Kaynar has made the classic bad guy mistake by not killing tygra right away, and had lion-o and cheetara kept fighting he would've most likely jumped in and left tygra by himself. Cheetara's decision end the fight sooner with zero chance of surviving. With a little luck there is always a chance of winning and luck only come and lasts as long as someones courage and bravery holds up and what cheetara did was cowardly. And on top of that she said "I have to stick with him" as opposed to panthro saying that they all have to stick togather so again I question tygra and cheetara's commitment to the cause

What was werid is she was committed to it in the begining of the episode and now she is siding with tygra.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

Claudis may not be the form of lion-o's self doubt as that door was closed when Claudis bowed to him and later said he was proud of him before he died.

We need to see another lion-o and tygra fight.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

Legacy may still be a foreshadowing but cheetara is shown to be unfit for her position so maybe pumyra will take her spot. I guess because pumyra is a puma and the original makers of the sword were cougars/puma making pumyra the new cleric or pumyra might look like panthera seeing how cougars are multicolored

I would've be fine with that if she was in the begining and if she was a main character.

Older I get, the more of character development I like and the romance side of it. I don't like quick flashback or forced relationships.

I would think that would destory cheetara's character.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Maybe Lion-o will become more Batman-like, colder and harder, and not really letting people to close. In other words more like his father?

Batman: "Welcome to the brooding club, old chum"
Lion-O: "Thanks, it's all because of this blasted love triangle I have to be part of! Darn Jelenic"
Batman: "I have many ships, you can learn something from it"
Lion-O: "How can you manage all those ships?"
Batman: "The writers do that for me"
Lion-O: "Ah I see, It's definitely time to change writers then!"

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Batman: "Welcome to the brooding club, old chum"
Lion-O: "Thanks, it's all because of this blasted love triangle I have to be part of! Darn Jelenic"
Batman: "I have many ships, you can learn something from it"
Lion-O: "How can you manage all those ships?"
Batman: "The writers do that for me"
Lion-O: "Ah I see, It's definitely time to change writers then!"

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

That is great.

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

I would've be fine with that if she was in the begining and if she was a main character.

Older I get, the more of character development I like and the romance side of it. I don't like quick flashback or forced relationships.

I would think that would destory cheetara's character.

I think she might be older but if she around lion-o's age and a interest for lion-o they will show they have more in common then a L/C pairing. Since they said a few ep will be about her nothing has to be forced. Cheetara's character is on a steady decline and would've been even if she did choose lion-o and this ep would've went down the same way

[Big Snarf]

I would've thought cheetara would've used her staff to make giant roots come up and fling atticus and kaynar like 50 feet in the air and lion-o and cheetara both punch slithe in the face at the same time for an instant KO but no she gave up and allowed herself to get put in a choke hold by atticus.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Agree. Most of those fans are tygra fans.

Looks like we three main leagues now:

L/C Justice League
T/C Defense League
No Triangle League

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

I would've thought cheetara would've used her staff to make giant roots come up and fling atticus and kaynar like 50 feet in the air and lion-o and cheetara both punch slithe in the face at the same time for an instant KO but no she gave up and allowed herself to get put in a choke hold by atticus.

Maybe she likes that choke hold.

[cmangund]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

He's probably referring to one of the times Cmangund and I were throwing out wacky theories.

Ah good times, good times indeed all the wacky theories.
Like Holmes always said "It's just a simple process of elimination."

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmangund

Ah good times, good times indeed all the wacky theories.
Like Holmes always said "It's just a simple process of elimination."

_______________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint.

Yep we are bound to get to the truth eventually.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

I would've thought cheetara would've used her staff to make giant roots come up and fling atticus and kaynar like 50 feet in the air and lion-o and cheetara both punch slithe in the face at the same time for an instant KO but no she gave up and allowed herself to get put in a choke hold by atticus.

I guess making her statement for her "love" of a flower, was more important to her.

[Mako Crab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Who said that?

(referring to people calling for the death or severe punishment of Cheetara)

Stormbringer said that. And I don't think it's cool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Maybe Lion-o needs to embrace his inner Claudus, and banish Cheetara(and probably Tygra who will definately turn on him when he does), for the sake of the mission. Cheetara has proven Lion-o can't trust her on any level, and his relationship with Tygra is only going to deteriorate even more with "Lady Macbeth" pulling the strings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

At this point I find Cheetara more villainous than the "bad guys". She is a danger to the whole team, Jaga's ghost needs to come out of the Book, and demote Cheetara and train the Wilykittens to be clerics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

For a moment when I saw Cheetara standing there,with her staff in the ground, I half expected her to reveal she was working with Mumm-ra all along. Seriously Claudus would have had her head if she pulled that crap on him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Cheetara is definately the weak link in the team. Lion-o should banish her, before she gets them all killed. But then that would put Lion-o and tygra at odds again, maybe we'll get lucky and she'll get killed off before too much longer.

[Given2u]

You know I've been thinking. If they said that the love triangle would be important, why would she choose so early (episode 13) when there "52 episodes. It's weird. I think (1) the writing don't know what they're doing, (2) they drastically rewrote the story, or (3) there will be a love interest switch. Usually when a guy/girl confesses early in an anime/cartoon it usually means that they will not last. But that is that thing--- who would want a person played you and distrust your decisions. That is not a complicated love triangle. The love triangle in "Broken Blade" is complicated. The main character want to be with Sygewn but she is married to Hord. Hord loves Sygewn but she does not. She loves Rygart. Rygart will not betray Hord. NOW THAT IS COMPLICTED!!

[Mako Crab]

Lion-O is still immature. His decisions aren't to always be trusted. For instance, Ramlak Rising. Lion-O made some pretty poor decisions against the advice of his teammates and nearly got them all killed.
The Duelist and the Drifter is another good example where Lion-O's own short temper, cockiness, and immaturity nearly cost him the Sword of Omens. He's still growing into the role of being king, but he's got a ways to go yet, and he's still making rash, irresponsible decisions.

[hollowdheart]

Doesn't look like Thundercats is going to return for good. CN didn't list them as a returning show at the convention http://therealmcast.com/24471/cartoo...ats-mentioned/

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mako Crab

Lion-O is still immature. His decisions aren't to always be trusted. For instance, Ramlak Rising. Lion-O made some pretty poor decisions against the advice of his teammates and nearly got them all killed.
The Duelist and the Drifter is another good example where Lion-O's own short temper, cockiness, and immaturity nearly cost him the Sword of Omens. He's still growing into the role of being king, but he's got a ways to go yet, and he's still making rash, irresponsible decisions.

I don't think anyone will argue that, but the characters have some growning too.

Lion-o is driven to unite the animals.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Given2u

You know I've been thinking. If they said that the love triangle would be important, why would she choose so early (episode 13) when there "52 episodes. It's weird. I think (1) the writing don't know what they're doing, (2) they drastically rewrote the story, or (3) there will be a love interest switch. Usually when a guy/girl confesses early in an anime/cartoon it usually means that they will not last. But that is that thing--- who would want a person played you and distrust your decisions. That is not a complicated love triangle. The love triangle in "Broken Blade" is complicated. The main character want to be with Sygewn but she is married to Hord. Hord loves Sygewn but she does not. She loves Rygart. Rygart will not betray Hord. NOW THAT IS COMPLICTED!!

This is what I said in the begining. Usually they won't show their final pair so early. They always make them go through tough situations or dating other people.

There is a lot of complicated triangles, but they give each party development.

First love triangle I saw was Tenchi (T/R/A).

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollowdheart

Doesn't look like Thundercats is going to return for good. CN didn't list them as a returning show at the convention the Realm Cast | Cartoon Network announces new and returning shows. No THUNDERCATS mentioned.

That will kill any interest in the show.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mako Crab

Lion-O is still immature. His decisions aren't to always be trusted. For instance, Ramlak Rising. Lion-O made some pretty poor decisions against the advice of his teammates and nearly got them all killed.
The Duelist and the Drifter is another good example where Lion-O's own short temper, cockiness, and immaturity nearly cost him the Sword of Omens. He's still growing into the role of being king, but he's got a ways to go yet, and he's still making rash, irresponsible decisions.

It's not just Lion-o who is immature, short tempered or cocky. Those all describe Tygra as well. As far as lessons go, all 3 Lion-o, tygra and cheetara need to learn some of those.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

This is what I said in the begining. Usually they won't show their final pair so early. They always make them go through tough situations or dating other people.

There is a lot of complicated triangles, but they give each party development.

First love triangle I saw was Tenchi (T/R/A).

These writers don't know how to do a complicated triangle. What will probably happen to further prolong it, is that T/C will break up in 1 episode for little to no reason, and then L/C will get together with no mention of Cheetara leading both guys on.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

These writers don't know how to do a complicated triangle. What will probably happen to further prolong it, is that T/C will break up in 1 episode for little to no reason, and then L/C will get together with no mention of Cheetara leading both guys on.

That sounds like the MO.

T/L will be best friends to after it.

I wonder if they planned for only 26 episodes.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

That sounds like the MO.

T/L will be best friends to after it.

I wonder if they planned for only 26 episodes.

It is getting kind of hard to believe that they plan these things out in advance, isn't it?

[Big Snarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

These writers don't know how to do a complicated triangle. What will probably happen to further prolong it, is that T/C will break up in 1 episode for little to no reason, and then L/C will get together with no mention of Cheetara leading both guys on.

Nah cheetara will dump tygra for snow-meow, lion-o will & snarf will laugh at tygra followed by the kittens laughing at tygra then panthro and the entire berbil village laughing at tygra followed by jaga appearing out of the book to laugh at tygra and finally mumm-ra looking through his cauldron along with slithe atticus and kaynor also laughing at tygra And iI forgot to mention I'll be laughing at tygra

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Snarf

Nah cheetara will dump tygra for snow-meow, lion-o will & snarf will laugh at tygra followed by the kittens laughing at tygra then panthro and the entire berbil village laughing at tygra followed by jaga appearing out of the book to laugh at tygra and finally mumm-ra looking through his cauldron along with slithe atticus and kaynor also laughing at tygra And iI forgot to mention I'll be laughing at tygra

Will Ma-mutt and Snarfer, join in on the fun?

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

It is getting kind of hard to believe that they plan these things out in advance, isn't it?

I think they planned it out, but I don't know if they thought they would get this reaction.

They were not expecting all the L/C questions at the Comic Con.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

I think they planned it out, but I don't know if they thought they would get this reaction.

They were not expecting all the L/C questions at the Comic Con.

Like we were saying before, if they wanted T/C or L/C, they should have gone with one or the other from the start. Or at at least give both equal build-up, not lame flashbacks about flowers.

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

Like we were saying before, if they wanted T/C or L/C, they should have gone with one or the other from the start. Or at at least give both equal build-up, not lame flashbacks about flowers.

or left out romance.

I agree 1000%.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

or left out romance.

I agree 1000%.

The writers have made everyone in this look pretty bad. Cheetara now looks totally irresponsible, both personally by leading Lion-o on, and professionally, by surrendering in battle. She should be glad that Claudus is gone, he definately wasn't the merciful type...

[L08e16o]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormbringer

The writers have made everyone in this look pretty bad. Cheetara now looks totally irresponsible, both personally by leading Lion-o on, and professionally, by surrendering in battle. She should be glad that Claudus is gone, he definately wasn't the merciful type...

Or Jaga. What is werid is I believe jaga would never assign cheetara to him. Unless he had a motive. She was young and so is he. He needed some one older than she is.

[stormbringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by L08e16o

Or Jaga. What is werid is I believe jaga would never assign cheetara to him. Unless he had a motive. She was young and so is he. He needed some one older than she is.

Perhaps Jaga thought she would be able to handle things more maturely than she did, being a cleric and all. One of the problems with Cheetara is that she refuses to take any responsiblity for this mess. She even blamed Jaga, by saying he was the one who sent het to look after Lion-o. If Cheetara admitted fault and apologized, Lion-o would likely forgive her.