If you ask me she's more "ample" than Pumyra, which makes sense because she's a former slave and recently suffered mistreatment (but nothing so bad that her combat skills deteriorate), but like Chique said, Cheetahs are slim and lean. Pumas, on the other hand are big brawny cats, but Pumyra is also younger than Cheetara so that may have something to so with it.

No, I was saying Jaga was testing cheetara.

The SS was testing lion-o.

Yeah, except who cares and who can stop them. Are you saying that if you disagree with their complaints those complaints are childish? Do you think that in these people's heads they think to themselves "I just want to complain, so I'm gonna pick something random and complain about it?"

Of course not. Most people complain because they honestly feel something is bad. There are, of course, trolls, but they're pretty easy to spot and I don't feel like I've seen a lot, or really any, of that on this board. It's a pretty mature board overall and everyone seems to say what they honestly feel.

I do not believe jaga would've let her die.

Ah, you must have missed the anorexic ho thing that was flying around here;) ...sorry for taking it there.

Oh you meant in the flashback. I thought you were talking about the trials.


Honestly I'm not so sure about that. I mean Jaga's supposed to be a good guy and all. But if he wasn't going to let her die he would've brought her back in much sooner. She only survived because of the flower. Unless Jaga actually knew about the flower he left her out too long.

Oh, it was TOTALLY a stab at that part, but it was still just a joke. I still think Cheetara is a sexy beast.

And Pumyra too. :cool:

I think he was testing her limits. They do this stuff in training all the time.

She was going to fall over if she didn't have the flower, I think he would've still brought her in. He was checking on her too.

That was DN that said that.

I basically agree with you here. Cheetara is of course free to end up with whoever she chooses. Like I've said too many times, she ended up with the one I wanted/expected.

Couple of caveats though:
1. Freedom to choose doesn't excuse poor presentation. Reveals are valid writing tools. Showing viewers/reader something they didn't see as they went on. But that doesn't mean that every time they're used, they are used well and have to be accepted. A perfectly good writing tool can be used in a crappy fashion.

And a pretty good example of a bad 'reveal' is when it is used to retroactively explain a development that is almost the opposite of everything that has happened in the story.

2. Cheetara's not real. This is important. She, technically, has no rights or freedoms of any kind. She is a storytelling device. As such, to produce a quality story (which is the goal of fictional media, since it makes more money that way), her behavior is beholden to the story being told, and the quality of the story being told is in the eyes of the viewers.

No matter who she ends up with, she has not made a 'free' choice about anything. She's just a piece of the writer's story. Had she chosen Lion-o, that would have been just as 'free' as that she chose Tygra. The question is 'was it done well?' not 'what does it say about Cheetara's rights as a woman?'

Besides, Thundercats long ago failed the becktel test (I'm probably getting the name wrong, seems to me Chique might know this) pretty badly.

Working for a small business that turns enough of a profit to pay out 2.5 million a year for 26 employees is stressful. In order to keep pay rates up like that, logically you're employees have to average well over $100k a year profit per person. That's a lot of responsibility, enough to make people vent about the extra little stresses in their lives. How many of the complainers that you work with complain about children's cartoons?

See, that's the thing. Thundercats is a kid's cartoon. It's not perfect, but it's much better fleshed out than the toy commercial that was the original series. For the most part, it's fun to watch. If anything upsets me, I just give it the benefit of the doubt, or write it off.

you are right, but you're sidestepping the point. People complain, because there is always something to complain about. If you're poor, it's because you don't have money. If you're not poor, it's because you have to work hard to stay not poor. I have a fairly easy job that pays fairly well, yet many of my co-workers complain constantly.

Children's cartoons are no more, or less, legitimate a thing to complain about than anything else. Barring of course REAL problems like people in Afghanistan not liking the number of bullets they've encountered recently.

A discussion is a discussion. And in fact, discussion and critical analysis of art is encouraged. And, low brow or not, children's cartoons ARE a form of art, and therefore open to critical analysis. This is NEVER going to be 100% positive. People will always have complaints. And that is okay. It is silly to suggest people can't complain.

The best show in the world could be better, and Thundercats is not considered, even by the people that defend it endlessly, to be the best show in the world.

My response was more about calling attention to some of the logic behind some of the post I've read. No she isnt real, but responses like "Lion-O did more" are silly, degrading and archaic. Unfortunatley, I've come across people who really think giving a woman "gifts" earns you a right to her affections. Why not use a cartoon to teach others a little something about equality and fairness? ((ugg, please don't find me pretentious, I'm at work ))
I wasnt really trying to make a case for how is was written, nor was I trying to give my personal opionion on how it was written/fits into this story. Just that "Lion-O did more, and so he deserves her" is gross. Basing an arguement around, .."but he did more" is imo, silly.
If she chose Lion-O over Tygra, then complaints like "...but Tygra helped her into the clericy, she should have chosen him" would be just as disturbing 0.o

Did it fail???? I can only recall one conversation between Pumyra and Cheetara, and that was at the begininng of COR. Are you talking about the OS? The Smurfette Principle seems to be a shoe in:(

Like I said, I agree with you, the way people said it was rude. My point is that she didn't choose Tygra freely. It is a choice by the writer. Not her. Unfortunately for what it might say for feminism, Cheetara has no choice, and her 'feelings' are irrelevent. Had the writers chosen Lion-o, that would have been 'free.'

So I guess if you're just mad at the posters, then I'm totally with you. But if you're at all talking about the show, then I semi-disagree like I said. It's a story, there are no feelings, just the story and whether it was quality or not.

I have no memory of the Smurfette principle. I'll admit I only know about the becktel test from my ex-girlfriend. Who was VERY feminist and taught me many of the concepts and terms (she was a good person). She may not have covered that part.

The one thing that still confuses me about Cheetara's confession (besides the whole flower/clericy thing which i felt was the reason she liked him, with the way it was worded) was that she said she knew what had happened in there and how she should have been clearer with her feelings. If she knew what was going on why did she even choose either of them? Neither of them treated her right.

And it's the Bechdel test, BTW.

The Smurfette Principle; a female character strictly for demographic appeal but make no real attempt to treat her as an interesting character in her own right, outside of her relationships with the male characters. Which is sadly all i've seen of Cheetara so far.

Ah, thank you for the spelling. I was pretty sure I had it wrong, but no one corrected me, so I went with it.

Okay, then does that count as a failure of the test? Or is it just an exception, because such a character could never pass the test?

And on that point, I would presume that Cheetara and Wilykit (people always forget the kittens) COULD have passed the test, but they did not. So while the Smurfette principle may apply, it didn't have to. And now there's Pumyra, but I don't see that changing much in this regard. Does anyone else think these three are now going to become strong, independent female characters?

My response was a reaction to the sentiment behind some of the post. I'm not tryig to critiq the way the show has been written. :)

In order to pass, the film or show must meet the following criteria:

It includes at least two women,*
who have at least one conversation,
about something other than a man or men.* (T.V tropes:D)
Eh. Not mad, not really.
OFF TOPIC AND NOT RELATING TO HOW I FEEL ABOUT THE WRITING I'm still learning a lot about feminism myself. I don't want to come off as someone who has spent years learning about it, I still do and say problematic crap all the time. Yea, I wanted Cheetara to be with someone who supported her. I wanted to see her be with someone with whom she could feel like an equal, and I felt like any relationship with Lion-O would always be about Lion-O. In the end, if she would have chosen Lion-O and we never got to see why he would be a good choice for her, it would still be wrong to say she made the wrong choice as far as feminism goes.

Will say this about the triangle, the more they try to explain the 'twist', the worse it gets. I think the only way to really fix this, is to break the team up and then do a time jump, pull them all back together and start over like that. seemed to work rather well with Young Justice (long as they don't mess with my Spitfire KF/Artemis pairing)

I personally think it's a failure.

As for the bolded, i highly doubt it.

I agree with your first part. They need to stop explaining it.

That said, I don't want a time skip, I just want them to accept it and move on. Cheetara is with Tygra ok, show Lion-o accepting that and move on, show them being in a healthy relationship and we can slowly forget how it all happened.

ok, fair enough, then I agree.

As to Cheetara/Lion-o, I think that's a little unfair for two reasons. One, Lion-o is the main guy, pretty much anything with him is always gonna be about him, so you're basically saying he cant have a relationship on the show.

And secondly, in a 'these characters are real' sense, Lion-o is a KING (in the absolute monarch/divine right to rule sense of the word). This is something that modern social theories, especially ones about equality, can't really take into account. His world, and his people, are about him basically. He has no equal. Barring political changes that a kid's cartoon is unlikely to cover, they CANNOT be his equal. Their relationship, like every other relationship Lion-o will ever have, will always be defined by his position and his authority.

I wouldn't mind seeing a time jump actually, see Lion O full grown bad@$$ lion. right now he's still kinda scrawny...

They kind of did do that in this episode, Lion-O wishes her well in her mission and even with Pumyra's teasing he insists he's over his crush. Judging by his face as she leaves I'd say that he was telling the truth, and his first answer to her question of if he likes her is a solid "No."

That said, I don't nessecarily thing Tygra is over the whole triangle thing, as he gives his brother a little stink-eye as he walks away. It'll be interesting to see what happens if Lion-O and Pumyra do form a close relationship.

Okay, you know what, if it was done right, that would be kind of cool. Grown up Kittens, Adult Lion-o, etc. Could be fun. But I was NOT a fan of the YJ time-skip, so I would want a lot better handling than that (although the second episode made me less annoyed than the first). And I would want a good break-point where it would feel justified.

A good example of a well-handled time-skip, although I actually have never watched the anime and haven't read the manga in about five years, is Naruto. It flowed well and came at a good spot where taking some time allowed them to ratchet everything up.

yeah, I agree Tygra still has some issues there, but I also don't believe LiOon's over her yet either. Yes, he is making a solid attempt but Cheetara's own words, "you can't help who your heart chooses", that cuts both ways, and the boy did fall pretty hard. I'm certain though Pumyra, judging by her recent actions, will do her best with helping him with that matter...

and yes, it would be most interesting on how it will play out if they do form a close relationship.

will admit the YJ time jump did bother me at first as well, but now I'm more ok with it, be better if I get good news on the KF/A front... anyway, I agree a time jump like Naruto's would be great for this show.

Every single interaction they have does not have to be about Lion-O. Majority is a given, but all of it?
Yes he is a King, but the way the relationship is presented on the show does not have to depict complete and total dominant/submissive. That's why I think I'll be a bit more open to a relationship between L/P . Crush or not, I don't think I'll have to see her just turn her head down if Lion-O does something wrong. I understand he is the ruler, but I just don't want to see it portrayed that way. It wont be any fun for ME. :D I personally wont like it. The writers can depict their realtionships how ever they please, but that doesnt mean I will like it;)
We've seen Lion-O in a supportive role before. Why cant we see him do that in a romantic relationship as well? It would be a nice insight to his character.

I actually agree. I liked how they handled it in this episode, I just left it out to shorten the post.

I agree kind of about Tygra. I think he's gonna have to go through a second phase of understanding about his brother. His first phase was dealing with the stuff that couldn't be helped; blood, sword, crown, etc. But he dealt with that partially by assuring himself that he WAS the better man, even if he couldn't have the crown.

That's going to change when Lion-o actually matures into a confident, powerful warrior and king, and a good man. Tygra is going to have to come to terms with the fact that he's not just a better man than his brother. He's going to need to find something that defines him instead of rating himself by Lion-o. That will be the second phase.

And I think it's only after that that we'll see them actually have a good relationship.

I do kinda miss some of the insane crazyness you could only get with a half hour toy commercial. One episode would be Lion-O trying to save unicorns from cyborg vikings. Another would be Tygra and a Warrior maiden getting stuck invisible during a rescue mission. Half the cats taking the Thundertank undersea to help a walrus fight a giant robot. Mumm-Ra summons a samurai to mess Lion-O up. You just did not know what crazy thing was going to happen when you turned on the TV. Also the snazy theme.

It seems Tygra still hasn't gotten over his jelousy of Lion-O. Honestly though, Tygra really does not have anything to be jelous of. All bieng king has really given Lion-O is a ton of responsibilitys and problems. Other than those and a title, Tygra really has always gotten all the cream, while Lion-O has gotten all the trouble. Tygra needs to get over it fully, and support his brother, showing some actual charecter growth. Or at some point we will have to have Lion-O finally kick Tygra's ass.

I do kinda miss some of the insane crazyness you could only get with a half hour toy commercial. One episode would be Lion-O trying to save unicorns from cyborg vikings. Another would be Tygra and a Warrior maiden getting stuck invisible during a rescue mission. Half the cats taking the Thundertank undersea to help a walrus fight a giant robot. Mumm-Ra summons a samurai to mess Lion-O up. You just did not know what crazy thing was going to happen when you turned on the TV. Also the snazy theme.

It seems Tygra still hasn't gotten over his jelousy of Lion-O. Honestly though, Tygra really does not have anything to be jelous of. All bieng king has really given Lion-O is a ton of responsibilitys and problems. Other than those and a title, Tygra really has always gotten all the cream, while Lion-O has gotten all the trouble. Tygra needs to get over it fully, and support his brother, showing some actual charecter growth. Or at some point we will have to have Lion-O finally kick Tygra's ass.

Okay, this might sound kind of mean, but I'm not trying to push it that way.

Part of my point is I'm not sure where the line would be good enough for you. If he orders his LI around like a soldier (which she is likely to be, given the nature of the plot) 90% of the time, and is supportive and nice 10% of the time, is that okay?

My point is that the plot is what it is, a coming of age story about Lion-o, and his position is what it is, abolute monarch. Of course they should have scenes where he helps whoever his love interest is, but it's very likely these scenes would still be about Lion-o, rather than whoever his love interest is. In the end the balance will always swing his way, due to both the story that is being told, and 'reality.' How balanced is balanced enough for you?

Because of what this show is, I think you'd have to work very, very hard to depict anyone as equal to Lion-o.

Lol. You know when you put it all in one place like that it really does sound amazingly drugged out. I had sort of forgotten how incredibly insane the original series was.

I got the second half of season one on dvd recently, so I've been watching it.

Man I miss the berserkers. Cyborg vikings are just the coolest villians when your 6.

I still chuckle at Snowman and Snow Meow, I mean... how intimidating was that? Snow MEOW? Really?

You laugh, you laugh while you can, 'cause Snow Meow will wreck your shit.

http://funkyimg.com/t2/1667/904/3373...0h15m04s29.png

Also, trope time! Unfortunate Names - Television Tropes & Idioms

Cyborg Viking Pirates. Pretty much one of the most awesome things ever.

Kinda funny that Panthro's augmentations are kinda in the same goofy style as the Berserker gimmicks. Makes ya wonder if a hypothetical modern Berserker origin would involve the Berbils as well.

Example:
Lion-O helps Pumyra come to terms with what happened to her. Not only does Lion-O get a first hand view of what his people have been put through and how something like that can damage a person, but it also shows him another reason why he needs to be a good King, thus furthering his development as King and showing another side of his relationship with Pumyra, or whoever.
If they bother to try, his relationship as King does not have to uh, extend to his romantic ones. Maybe purposely make it an issue, and then work something interesting into it. I think it's possible to give him a romantic relationship that wont be defined by his role as King.
I know I'm not going to get what I want, but asking for a little more give and take from the relationships isn't absurd. You know what, as far as that goes, I'll probably never be happy. Fine, though I spend most of my time here talking about the romance, I do enjoy the show for other reasons:D.

Until I watched and episode with them in it, I thought it was snowcat, not snomeaw. Bad name but, awesome cat. Berbils sure would connect well with the Berserkers. Hey, Mumm-Ra can always look for someone else to sick on the cats.

you know the only real complaints the show really has on it is the crappy@$$ romance and Tygra being a douchebag, beyond that the show's purely awesomesauce. :)

Previews for Saturday are out if you know where to look. Looks like more Leo and Panthera and also Lion-O and Pumyra are going to have some alone time (if you don't count Addicus and a butt-load of lizards trying to get them).

It's true, we can only dream of being as awesome as this. I hope the new guys put some of the crazy back in. they've said they respect the crazy, and that's why they kept the berbils and the candy fruit, but some more crazy would be fun.

And Cyborg Viking Pirates would explode people's minds.

More Leo/Panthera? Finally!

Yeah it looks like it'll tell some of what happened before Legacy. Mumm-Ra destroys a whole solar system to create the Sword of Plun-darr. Maybe that was the push that finally made them revolt.

I don't know...where?????????????/

Wow...he must have been really strong to destroy a whole solar system....

I basically agree with you, but I'm not sure what 'equality' you're talking about. Do you just mean dominance in the relationship? Or who's issues are being dealt with? Or who's POV is given weight?

Because for dominance and POV, it's pretty much always gonna be Lion-o, for the reasons I stated above. But if you're talking who's issues they're working through, then yeah, it would be nice if that was balanced.

I disagree that his position as king doesn't have to affect his romantic ones. It's not a job you go home from. I would like it though if they made it an issue and then deal with it well like you said.

I don't think it's absurd, it just depends what exactly you're asking for. It will always be defined by Lion-o, but it would be nice if he deals with other people's crap sometimes too. Tygra's episode being a good example. This is a funny show, and I put very little past them. They do an enormous amount of really stupid thing, but they also do a lot of things really well, and you can never guess what will be good each weekend. It's that inconsistency that frustrates the hell out of me, but it's the potential that keeps me watching.

Check ThundercatsNOW's youtube. I don't want to post direct links. the mods here tend to get a bit angry when people do.

umm... solar system and a galaxy are not really the same, and not on the same scale. Though even destroying a solar system seems a little stronger than what we've seen so far.

Oh, my bad, i read that wrong.