Yes, but according to some reports the collector sales are something like 10% of the total market. I'm not sure how true that is, because it's thought by most collectors to be an archaic (but still followed) study.

That's insufficient to keep a retail line afloat. Maybe if Bandai were open to an adult collector line, like Mattel did with MOTUC, it could work.

It wouldn't.

MOTUC works because Mattel owns the property and there's just enough interest there to keep it going.

Bandai couldn't even use Mattels model because they have additional and very expensive costs of essentially leasing the license. They've got the toy rights to the series for a limited time and they need to make that investment back on top of production costs and whatnot. That's not an inconsiderable amount, that's millions. Even if there were just as many TC fans wanting the figures as there are MOTUC buyers, figures would cost well over a hundred dollars each just to make back those millions spent getting the rights.

I don't think there are many at this point that don't see the toyline as a failure; Wal-mart upcoming Planograms don't include TC; several Wal-marts aren't even carrying the line anymore after they sold out of their current stock. TRU has them on permanent clearance and some have even moved them to the discount clearance section to free up the peg/shelfspace, and so forth. There isn't even any further product coming to online distributors from Bandai.

As mentioned, CN doesn't like having shows that don't have toylines to promote it. The ratings forced the move out of prime time to a slot that it's still not thriving in, especially for a toy based show which have higher expectations.

Add in a parent company that is only doing the absolute minimum to meet their existing obligations to the show and the writing on the wall becomes pretty clear.

ThunderCats ratings (at least the adult ratings) are comparable to Young Justice (which lost it's toyline) and Green Lantern (which has no toyline) which are returning. I do think YJ and GL are protected because of the whole DC Nation block thing that's competing with Disney XD's Sunday block.

you can't just point out two random episodes like that.
Here I'll do the same thing and make it look like it's doing better now.


Into the Astral Plane 1.432

The Forever Bag 1.755

Hey look it gained 12%



You have to look at the series as a whole, not point out two random episodes. And as a whole it's doing roughly the same as it always has.

Well, that and DC is very powerful. It's been around a long time, so if CN ever decided to try and can it they could move it somewhere else. They have the resources for it. Though i wish we could find the kid's ratings for TC.....since CN only counts those.

The same company that owns the DC characters own the ThunderCats too btw.

WB owns DC Comics? :confused: And the characters too?

Yes, but DC is WB's answer to Marvel's characters, which are curbstombing DC in the movie theaters, especially the 1-2 megapunch of the Avengers AND Spider-Man. ThunderCats isn't so needed. Avengers is so dominant that Justice League is being looked at now.

Getting rid of ThunderCats means more DC Nation shows, probably Teen Titans, Go! or Beware the Batman.

What do the movies have to do with animated series? None of the main team members of Young Justice or Teen Titans are going to have movies any time soon. And I doubt GL is going to have a sequel either.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. DC Nation is going up against the Marvel Universe block, which is probably even more imperative because of all the success Marvel has been having lately, especially because of all the back-to-back movies. Marvel characters are more popular than ever because of those movies and the cartoons are capitalizing on the movies success--there is a movie Avengers toon coming. A Hulk cartoon is also coming. Green Lantern and Young Justice are needed to compete against Disney XD's growing Marvel block and could still remain on CN despite ThunderCats being in the same success area.

You've got the DC Nation element for sure, but also keep in mind those ratings you posted, those later Green Lantern viewership numbers (All of June) were for repeats against brand new TC episodes.

It's called Brand Recognition.

Does the random person on the street know who Miss Martian or Artemis or Aqualad are? Young Justice isn't exactly a house hold name. The big DC characters like Superman and Batman only make the occasional cameo.

And it's not like Thundercats doesn't have any Brand Recognition itself.

Just as there are TCat guys and gals, there are a ton of DC guys and gals. There are a lot more DC fans and they will buy anything.

TCats have not been a focus since the OS. The comics didn't do anything for them.

TCats needed to do really well to have any staying power.

This argument is terrible and shortsighted.

Whatever Bandai's business model has NOTHING to do with hiring competent sculptors and decent paint apps for the toys. ( see TRU SDCC Lion-o--if Mattel is beating you on paint apps..you have very big problems.)

The 4 horsemens sculpts alone do more to sell those toys.

Bandai is terrible, and Icon Heroes Mumm-ra proves it!

The toyline didn't fail because the sculpts weren't up to 4H standards. I think kids forgot about ThunderCats during the hiatus, especially during Christmas time and the toys just sat there. Amazon was giving ThunderTanks away for $8 and Tower of Omens for $12.

Lets get in the weeds shall we.

1) The ORIGINAL is the Holy Word since its ...y'know.... the ORIGINAL. Whatever you think you know about t-cats---its established by the only thing that existed.

2) Im judging this crappy show by MJ own words and the episodes. JELENIC HIMSELF said he didn't understand the original. NOT a good sign for fans of the property. He likened the show as borrowing from Star wars and Superman. ( actually if he read ANYTHING from Joseph Campbell he'd understand why these archetypes work) .

If the show does, then i could think of FAR, FAR worse things to borrow from than the some of the most succesful and iconic properties IN THE WORLD.

3) I judge the show in its actions. They disrespect the show from the get go. Introducing castes that infer that t-cats are racists, tygra and Lion-o being brothers, jealousy between the two, Panthros arms being ripped off, the STUPID dare i say idiotic rebooting of the Anointment trials....the list can go on and on.
The ONLY thing the did right from the start was getting Larry Kenny back for claudus.
Y'see, The show didn't need to have elements of Racism to make it more "mature" because the T-cats ROSE ABOVE IT. They stand for something better.
Instead of the anointment trials being about Lion-o maturing and earning and growing into his mantle of Leadership[, its now just a fever dream he had close to death and it doesn't mean anything.
Tygra was not established as a sibling of Lion-os...why, because it didn't need it. No we get whiney pettiness and contrived sibling rivalry to make it more "real".
Every turn they've taken has been a misstep.

again...let the show die.

The first sure step that they can do is to bring back the surviving OS writers. Peter Lawrence already wrote one Ep in this NS. WB should call him back at the very least and make him (better yet call in the OS producers as well too) in-charge replacing MJ. As the OS writers and producers were the ones making TCATS successful in the first place!:cool:

________________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand.

Again, you THINK, but i will argue you're wrong.(thats to say , Its Christmas and you can't sell your product? c'mon)

The paint apps have been atrocious. The SDCC LION-O was badly done. The paint smudges to "define" muscle were like mud...Bad Quality.

The one thing outta the gate they needed to do was shore up their base. The hard core fans You know the ones that are fans of teh original show and are old enough to have money to buy better product ( again see mattel) .....and they just aren't doing that , thus the line dies.

The 4 horsemen simply sculpt BETTER, more EYE CATCHING figures.

and If you wanna take them outta the comparison, then look at Icon Heroes...they simply are producing better sculpts...more attractive sculpts.


From Jelenic to Bandai to CN..they've handled this property WRONG.

I'm presenting opinions, just like you are. So yes, I THINK. When you start presenting your opinions as facts, it's an invitation to be challenged. If you don't have proof to back up your claims, you would be discredited.

Yes, you can't sell the series with no new episodes or even no re-runs of that series. I think kids have short memories. Take it off the air and they will forget about the show. They probably moved onto the new thing, thinking that the show had been canceled.

Not everything sells during Christmas. Amazon WAS selling ThunderTanks and Tower of Omens for dirt cheap during the holidays. You see tons of those boxes at Walmart.

Again, adult collectors were not the target audience. I'm not debating that the 4H are better, but Bandai geared the toys toward kids with the magnet gimmick. This whole relaunch was centered around kids.

:confused: I don't understand how any of what you said has anything to do with what I said.

Allow me to simplify.

Mattel owns MOTU. So, Mattel pays Mattel $0 to make MOTUC figures. That cost is passed on to the figures they make, which after the costs of production, profit for Mattel, and paying Mattel for the rights to make MOTUC ends up being $22.

Bandai does not own TC. So Bandai has paid WB millions to make TC figures. That cost has to be recovered in the pricing of the figures they make, which after the costs of production, profit for Bandai, and recovering the expenses for the rights ends up being a very high cost, likely around $80 a figure just to make the same amount of total profit as Mattel does without losing money, either on the license acquisition fees or on the cost of production with the same number of purchasers as MOTUC has currently.

The quality of the figure is irrelevant, it's the license cost that keeps Bandai from emulating the MOTUC business model.

Problem is the reboot was written for an older audience, but put into an environment geared for the 6-12 demo. Look at the episodes that garnered the best ratings (other than the first couple after the premier) they were episodes that focused on Kit/Kat. Episodes that were "darker" and more adult (Native Son for example) tanked. (Look at the toonzone board for ratings in the 6-12 demo).

Putting the show in Friday prime time opposite the Clone Wars was fine for attracting an older audience. (The writing was appropriate for that demo during that time slot) But THEN basing the success of the show on toy sales for an age group that is really not going to buy them was just plain stupid! The show worked very well to compliment Clone Wars and also was on par with its ratings.

So now CN panics, they dumped a bunch of money and aren't getting anything back. So they put the show on hold and try to retool their strategy. Their solution, put it on Saturday morning to get the demo they want. Problem is they waited 4 months to do it.

Now you have a show written for an older audience being dumped in a timeslot geared to a completely different demo in the "middle" of the shows first season. For those viewers and those who've never seen the show it becomes a WTF is this?

I have no problem with the creativity of the writers and artists and the direction that they wanted to take the NS. People can have differences of opinions about the story, love triangles, character designs, Pumyra being a psycho, lack of Bengali or whatever; but it wasn't that which put the show on the verge of cancellation. It was poor management of the brand and incompetence on the part of CN and WB.

They need to take a break, but let us know TCats will continue. They need to replace MJ. Bring in some of the OS writers mixed with the writers that understand TCats.

They can keep the main plot, but chage a lot of subplots going on. It would be nice to have an honest open crew too.

You guys who think the OS is the Holy Grail, need to just re-watch the original episodes for your fix, and stop complaining about the new series. There are plenty of episodes of; Mumm-ra hatches an evil scheme to destroy the Thundercats, Lion-o defeats everybody with the SoO, rinse, repeat. It seems like that's more your speed.

That is because lion-o is the star, the hero. Not so much with this show.

He wrote The Forest of Magi Oar. With the Woodforgers.:(

Problem is, is that an updated version of exactly that is what WOULD attract an audience in the 6-12 demo and probably WOULD sell more toys.

I probably wouldn't watch it now, but if I were in the 6-12 demo like I was when the OS aired, hell yeah I would watch and probably want to get some toy too.

And THATS THE EXACT STUPID and LIMITED THINKING I addressed earlier.

If the Thundercats are so popular a property they wanted to bring back....why change it? Its an example of the arrogance hollywood had in the 90's regarding comic properties. Nowadays Hollywood has figured out being as Faithful as possible or within reason is what works. But Still guys like MJ think they have the magic bullet to fix whats not broken.

OF course, if you actually read what i wrote, I said update the series with better dialogue and action but DONT FUNDAMENTALLY change what made the show great.

the QUALITY is INDEED relevant. I WILL BUY MOTUC bacuse it looks great and is well made...I WILL NOT buy this drek for me or my kids because its crap .

Oh yeah, and the hardcore fans of the Original show are the ones with the money...yknow .....the parents.

If Kids are the the SOLE target audience, which you seem to be infering, then Bandai are bigger idiots than i thought.

Thundercats CORE audience are , at least before the new show got deep into episodes, are the fans of the ORIGINAL...whats known as a base. If you can't capture them, then theres no guarantee you'll get the higher new fans. Again, MOTUC, works because they sell to their base first, the MOTU fans that know the property from the 80'..the fans that have the money....not six year olds who don't

My vote is that the show should die. Its not handled well, written well, and the toys are not good at all.

Part of better dialogue, is having better things to talk about. That involves adding complications like Lion-o being imperfect, or Tygra occasionally being a jerk. But that's just my "stupid and limited thinking" opinion. ; )

And I still think your use of the word "arrogance" is unfortunate. Your implication is that the writers go out of their way to piss you off. Sorry, they don't even know you, they certainly aren't setting out to hurt your feelings.

And there in lies the problem of why the show's writing isn't great, especially when writing the main star and hero of the show, Lion-O. I agree that they should have gotten writers from the original series or news ones who understand it, along with going by the Joseph Campbell stuff.

Im going by show runner Jelenics own words as far as arrogance goes. It is ARROGANCE to walk in and completely change huge chunks of the mythology because he couldn't understand it.

Its easy to understand the Original show and its popularity. rhetorically speaking...you mean to say you can't understand:

a) a cartoon thats just cool with fantasy and sci-fi elements , a magic sword and great looking heroes and villains? ( how did excalibur or motu ever become popular?)

b) A story about a kid in a mans body with the responsibilty or mantle of a leader bestowed on him and how he deals with that? ( wow i hope he never writes Shazam then...errrrrr wait...)

c) howsabout a story about the last survivors of a royal family fleeing their dying homeworld and making their way on a unknown planet and being hunted by various enemies?


Yeah... Jelenic...its so hard to understand or find stories to write.

He likened it to Star Wars or Superman, and again i say, even it did borrow from those ( BTW those borrowed from other stories too) , they are some of the biggest , successful properties ever....learn from success i say.

Like I said, Lion-o and the SoO is what made me tune in. Cheetara was next for me.

If he likened it to Super Man. Then who is Super Man, it isn't lion-o.

The archetype of Superman , a high ranking scientist/ royalty sends his only alien son from a dying planet that crash lands on Earth. ( borrows from jesus and moses) I believe thats what Jelenic is referring. As does it borrow a little from Star Wars ( magic sword, young guy bestowed a mantle--Jedi---- and a Ghostly advisor Jaga=Obi wan )

These archetypes, as analyzed and researched by Joseph Campbell are successful and passed down though the ages . Even if you don't know why, on a gut level you respond to them because your mind recognizes them and connects with them.

Thanks. I can see some of that.

I just don't see lion-o or SoO being that strong in the NS.

Ghostly advisor. I still can't get the ending of 15 out of my head. There is jaga in the sky and cheetara doesn't bat an eye lash.

Thats because its not.

Jelenic compared the Original to those properties, but says he couldn't understand the original show. It doesn't make sense and he changes huge parts of the mythology in the NS. ( BTW, Jelenic was quoted , when the series was being started, in a interview or two and one AUDIO interview posted on ComicBookMovie...just so folks understand where i get that quote)

So I agree, I see no real understanding of what makes the thundercats work, what makes lion-o cool, or The SoO.

Maybe that is his excuse. He made this show the way he wanted too.

When I first heard the show was coming on, I couldn't wait to see how they made lion-o. Love the art, but he is very weak compared to the OS lion-o.

They aren't. Granted Lion-O shouldn't be that strong at first, but he should gradually develop his skills and form a bond with the SoO that makes him very powerful with each episode... The evolution of a King. As it stands now at episode 25, he hasn't evolved all that much both in character nor in strength. I also don't feel like he has established that "bond" with his sword.

I have to agree here.. this was poorly executed. The rest of the cats should have shown some emotion upon seeing Jaga's face in the sky. I wouldn't have minded a tear from Cheetara's eye or a solemn look on Panthro's face. Instead they looked like it was just another everyday occurrence.

i know what the toy line need :O
Giant spring-loaded launchers
cause kids love that stuff :P




















JK

Michael Bay disagrees with you. LOL!

But seriously, I think it's because no one wants to try to copy the old series for a few thousand hardcore fans. The companies want to appeal to new fans, which causes the brand to grow. The old stuff is out there and usually there is no going back to it with sequels or new adventures with the old crowd. In 20 years, animation companies fold, voice actors, writers and other creators die.

Sometimes you can't go back, you have to go forward. And sometimes it works, sometimes it fails.

Parents may have the money to get what they want, but they do buy stuff for their kids (new fans) who might want that "stupid" Armor of Omens.

Bandai of America really doesn't know the adult collector market. That really showed with the articulation differences, paint washes, black pegs and the 8" size. This is a company that makes Ben 10 and Power Rangers.

MOTU was in this same boat 10 years ago. 200X flopped because Mattel flooded the stores with variants, while shortpacking the new characters and Mattel learned from it's mistakes by adopting an online model.

I'd rather not have the show die and return when I'm 50. MOTU fans have had long gaps--10 years between New Adventures of He-Man and 200X, then 5 years between 200X and Classics! That's 15 years of waiting in limbo for new product. I'd rather have the property get saved and turn all the mistakes around. Unfortunately, that seems unlikely at this point.

Personally, I'd love it if WB dropped Bandai and Mattel took over, with the 4H sculpted 6" Classic or Modern era figures. Yes, you'd have to endure some of the Digital River crap, but I think a 12 figure a year Club Thundera subcription with SDCC exclusives and sub exclusives could nail all of the major players within the first 2 years.

New writers are fine. The problem is with the person in-charge with the project as writers will just write what they are being told with a touch of their own stuff practically speaking, like the Pettalars story detail was practically JM Demetties's idea not fully MJ and The Magi oar thing by Peter Lawrence had some OS style in it with the environment message thing, though the T/C thing was "ordered" by MJ. And if the new show story was "good" then PL will be "pleased" with what MJ and crew did instead of being "Not happy" with what MJ and crew did with the show.

Yes the main plot can be kept, and change alot of other "illogical" stuff. A "Honest" crew something like Timm and Co. back then will definitely help alot.

________________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand.

I agree. He is the one I want replaced.

All the stuff happens off screen and we like you to figure out on your own is all MJ stuff.

Totally.

That "off screen excuse" thing it shows that, he is having "difficulties" to write "serious characterization and story".

________________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand.

Well, you know there were a lot of stolen moments.:D

It is being lazy.

If they were just going to make the same show, why bring it back at all? The OS has like 130 epsidoes to enjoy. Also the more you limit your writers and artist the less they're able to flex their creativity, and the faster they'll burn out on the project.

That's happening only inside his brain.:D

________________
Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand.

The show is like 93% the same as the OS. The 7% that's been changed is the part you're having trouble with, which tells me that what you're really looking for is a box set of the OS to watch on repeat. Whatever you do, don't be a G.I. Joe fan, X-Men fan, or a Transformers fan, you couldn't handle the changes various incarnations have made to these mythologies.

No, it is not. The god awful comics are 93%. The NS is 40-50%. I have all of the OS boxset, and they aren't even close. I don't want a repeat, i want a reboot that treats the characters with respect -- something hardly any of them are getting. Cheetara sure isn't getting any respect. All she's been is a trophy for the boys to whine over and a personal cheerleader for her boyfriend -- a man she won't even challenge to think differently now that they're together.

This was posted by LioConvoy over @ TCL. It is a FB status by Dan Norton. (Sorry I don't have a direct link)

It appears that even the Thundercats crew is on "standby" like the rest of us waiting to hear some news from WB. If this is the case then I take it as a good sign that WB hasn't made up their minds yet about the fate of the show.

you know, it's kind of a good sign if they haven't told them that they need to be looking for other work...