I'm going to be tacky and multipost here without a quote, but I wanted to mention that I really like what they did with Kit here and I hope they keep going with it. Having her be the one that believes in Lion-o could go a long way towards giving her a role.
Sure, it's a function of Lion-o, but in a story that is at the end of the day about Lion-o it's an important role. And it could help Lion-o mature a lot if he knows that there is one thundercat who, no matter what happens, will still believe in him. That could do a lot to help his confidence. Which in turn could make him a less annoying character. |
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Basically, I think it was played vague enough for the audience to argue over if she was into him or not. The reason I got stereotype-y is because, "women only do XYZ if their interested" is a stereotype. I wanted your input on the whole dependent v Alpha Male, and how it is viewed when it comes to being stereotypical. |
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I understand, I wasn't mad about the stereotype just saying. I agree that usually you expect the alpha-male/dependent female thing in a show like this, so one could argue that the cheetara behavior wasn't standard romantic behavior. It's hard to say, but I would guess what you've got here is a stereotype that's breaking. Because I DO believe the authors intended those scenes to be romantic, even if it was a red herring. But you're right in that it would be an unusual media romance with an older, more capable female being romantically involved with a younger, more immature male character. Not standard children's show romance. Although I guess that's basically what it was with Aang and Katara in Avatar as well. Though everyone in that show was young. I really wish they would have aged up every character in that show by 2 to 3 years, all of the character interactions would have made more sense. That's basically what they're doing in Legend of Korra though, so yay. |
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It's Young Justice only in name. The producers have said as much. It's pretty good. If you have the time after Thundercats, I would rec it. Dick actually doesn't get a butt load of screen time. I remember thinking he would based off popularity alone. Perfomance was a Robin centric episode. It made me cry.:D |
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I can see how someone would take those scenes as romantic, but I still see how it can be considered platonic. I can see the potential for both sides to have a valid argument. I think the writers wanted us to question it, which is why it was played with vaguely. Well, on Cheetara's part. Am I making sense? |
To Katara, Aang was the plain chocolate in the center of a chocolate sample box. She was going to wind up with him anyway since all the other guys she flirted with were temporary.
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Not just media romance, but real life.
Weak or not, self-dependency seems to be very important when picking a mate. It looked like Cheetara was literally and figuratively doing a lot of hand holding. Were they ever shown just hanging out, or did all of their "romantic scenes" involve Cheetara telling Lion-O that he was capable? It was always about helping Lion-O feel better. Also, you want to feel like your only equal footing with your mate. Cheetara sees herself as his subject, he is her king. Even when she thinks he's wrong, she usually goes along with it. If anyone questions it, they do it because he is the king. I think a good love interest would assert herself more, be more aggressive. King or not, if I'm going to support it, the love interest needs to be seen as compatible. She has no problem telling Tygra to shove it, so that was a point in that ships favor for me. |
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However, I think it would have worked better had the writers not so prominently announced in half the interviews that it was a love triangle. Because what we've got here is just a guy and a girl who liked each other all along, and a boy on the sidelines who got confused. And had they left it to the viewers to figure it out, I think it would have been less screwy. But they called it a love triangle and said there would be some romantic tension the whole season. And there WAS romantic tension the whole season. AND then they gave an explanation that basically retconned all of Cheetara's behavior. Had they just left it all up to the viewers' discretion I think there would be a lot less complaining. The other thing that would have helped is more romantic scenes with Tygra instead of just Lion-o. As it is nearly every scene she has is with Lion-o and then they suddenly do a flashback and pretend it's development. It's like the Black Panther/Storm marriage from a while. Marvel decided they wanted them married, but the two characters had no previous interactions, so marvel just published a flash-back miniseries showing how, ACTUALLY, they'd known and loved each other all along. Problem solved. Except it's not, because that kind of thing doesn't work on fans that have been following these characters all along. |
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While I agree, and prefer, to be on equal footing with my mate, such an argument is a little irrelevant for a king. It's the nature of the beast that no mate is EVER on an equal footing with a king, and was likely their subject before they were married, especially in a world where your whole race is your kingdom, so you can't even go one kingdom over to find a bride not in awe of your station. That said, I have no problem with compatibility, and hope they show Pumyra, or someone, who has compatibility with Lion-o become his Love Interest. Cheetara could have worked, but I was always pretty convinced she'd end up with Tygra. |
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I'm not a big MARVEL girl. Though, I was sad to hear Jean and Scott ended . |
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Katara on the other hand comes off very mature for her age. I think that's why so many had no problem pairing her off with Zuko. You could forget Katara was 14. Typically from my experiences, you don't want to parent your SO. |
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That is why, like I said, it would have been better if the writers had never said anything, then your interpretation would have very little to argue against it. Fair enough. |
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Relationships and the people in them come in all shapes and sizes. :D For a romantic relationship to work, she cannot sit there and bow down to Lion-O's every wish. It's not something that's is going to, or should work. Yes Lion-O is a King, but the audience is not going to be susceptible to that kind of dynamic. Not in a romantic relationship. That would be uncomfortable to watch. I would love to see Lion-O with someone who has no qualms about telling him no, or refusing him. Make him work for it, so to speak. |
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True, but as you of all people should accept, given your argument regarding Cheetara, there was little to no real interaction between Katara and Zuko, barring one or two episodes. And what's an SO? Also, lot's of people enjoy feeling nurturing around their mates. Ideally it goes back and forth and finds an equilibrium. |
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I agree with you about equality versus dominance in a relationship, but I think you're pushing too hard the other way. Thundercats is the story of a monarch. Yes it's a children's story; but it's still about a monarch, to have a character who does not accept Lion-o as king would undercut the truly important themes of the story (let's face it, the romance stuff IS secondary). They need to find a balance. There's no reason they can't have it both ways. Respect can provide a good basis for a relationship even if you don't have social equality. |
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I've come to see this triangle as both boys interested in Cheetara, but no clarification on her feelings. If a triangle means she had to be interested in Lion-O, than the same would have to hold true for her feelings for Tygra. Maybe the definition of love triangle isnt as sound as we think? Sure three people were involved, but I don't see a twilight dynamic. More like two boys fighting over a girl. I'm also not questioning if the writers wanted you to see the scenes as romantic. I already stated, I think it written so that you would QUESTION IT. |
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Here's a question I have, would calling a Thundercat a pussycat be their version of an negative epithet. |
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You're being too specific. It's not that we were told how the love triangle would end. We were told there would be a love triangle. This romantic tension took the form of all the Lion-o/cheetara scenes. God knows there weren't any Tygra/Cheetara scenes. And then their final explanation basically retconned all those scenes out of existence. It would have been different if they had just said she was confused but picked Tygra. They didn't. It was poorly done. They showed NO development of one pair, lots of development of the other (romantic or not), and then they chose to argue that the pair with NO development was the real pair and the one with all the development was a figment of our collective imagination. |
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This show is majorly from Lion-O's perspective. We got everything through Lion-O's eyes. We never saw Cheetara blush or stutter around Lion-O. We never saw them just hanging out our trying to learn more about each other. All we got was Lion-O feeling like a putz, and then Cheetara swooping in for the rescue. You think it was poorly done, that is your opinion and I'm not going to try and change it:D The only thing I'm bringing to question or trying to debate, are Cheetara's motives. If Cheetara behaved like Lion-O, I would be pissed that she chose Tygra. My point is, that it was played vaguely enough that I don't feel like she was lying to anyone. If the creators said nothing about the triangle, then it would have been ok? Even if she acted the way she did, you would have been ok as long as no one mentioned it was a triangle? |
No one gets into Thundercats because of the romance, that would be silly. If you left because of the last 5 minuets of Between Brothers, than I doubt you would have made it through 52 episodes.
I still like her, well, as much as I ever did. |
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My point is that even if, by using real life standards, Cheetara didn't lead Lion-o on, the writers lead the fans on. Though I think Cheetara's innocence is seriously debatable, had a girl done that with me, I would be VERY frustated and a bit betrayed. I would try to be less immature about it than Lion-o was, but it would probably ruin our friendship for at least a while. Cheetara is not a real person, she has no motives. And I think by limiting the argument to that extent, you leave out large portions of what went wrong with this triangle and why so many fans are so angry about it. And saying it was from Lion-o's POV is an overstatement. The show is third person, we do not hear Lion-o's thoughts. He does get the most screen-time by far, but we have no more insight into his actions than we do any of the other characters, except for the familiarity that comes with seeing him do more stuff. |
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Ok, how does recognizing that Cheetara has expressed little to no interest in anything but Lion-O, affect my interpretation of this triangle? If you ask me, Cheetara had less to do with the "triangle" than Lion-O and Tygra. While their interest was clear, hers was not. Anyways, that was a response to her treatment as a character. People were complaining that she did little else other than encourage Lion-O. It made her dull and flat. Nothing else about her character was ever really addressed.I like 12 year old Cheetara way more than I like 19 year old Cheetara. That's because in an effort to make her likable, the author gave her a more dynamic personality. I had more opportunity to fall for her in that one scene, then I did in the rest of her screen time the entire season. It wouldnt be the first time the author lead his/her audience on. It's not that uncommon. |
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Between her split second surrender in ep 14, and Kit having FAR more faith in Lion O surviving a fall than Cheetara (they saw him fall they didn't see him die) there's a lot more ground between them than the first 12 eps led us to believe, and that saddens me because I had hoped even chosing Tygra she'd remain Lion O's most stedfast support. She promised that she'd believe in him, and she's being trumped by a eight year old kitten. I'm happy that Tygra and Lion O's relationship is getting its bridge patched up some, but his and Cheetara's needs some work done too if this team is going to hold together. |
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As to the current episode- just great all around. I loved every minute of it. :) |
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I never said your interpretation was affected because of how you interpret Cheetara, my point is that your WHOLE interpretation is based off of how you see Cheetara. There is a fourth party here, and that is the writers. Writers have GOALS, and intensions for stories. There are things that writers want you to think and ways they want you to interpret a scene. And my point is I think the writers manipulated fan sentiment in a crappy way here. They created a situation where a LOT of fans dislike their main three characters, I think fairly, and that is bad writing. Only looking at the fictional 'feelings' of the main characters leaves out the role of the writers not only in interviews and such, but in their clear intent for the plot within the show. Plots have purposes. And you're behaving as though no matter what a writer does, it's inherently valid. Writers can be WRONG, they can create crappy media. You don't have to just take whatever they do at face value. |
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She didn't stop supporting him. She told him he was making a bad call, she advised him. And when he chose to ignore her advice, she chose to go after him anyways. Because she was never given any drive or focus, people only gave a damn about her position in the love triangle. What is Cheetara, other than this love triangle? |
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One thing missing from the show is Lion-O doing a Malcom in the Middle thing by talking to the viewers.
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Whether it means anything to you or not, I will PM you a response tomorrow evening. Or you can make a thread . I like talking to you. As far as I can recall you have not written me off because I like Tygra. All things considered, it was refreshing. |
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Jelenic said it himself a very important part of the story, albeit it's being written this bad. :eek: _______________ Jelenic and crew will be forever be remembered as the man and crew that tainted the TCATS brand. Hopefully J.M. DeMatteis will remove some of the taint. |
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I have no problem with you liking Tygra. I like Tygra. Although I do wish they'd make him an ass less at unnecessary times. I'd like them to find a way to inject drama without making it seem like these six people don't even like each other. (To get back on topic a little) I think that is something this episode might be leading towards: Tygra understanding Lion-o's job, Kit having faith in her king, all of them realizing Lion-o usually comes through for them, Lion-o learning to be less immature, etc. I'm hoping this will lead to more group cohesion. |
To be fair, I didn't mind season 1. It's season 2 that really annoys me. It's filled with too many inconsistencies and situations where you can tell the writer wants a certain thing to happen but has NO idea how to make it happen so he handwaves it into happening. The fight scenes are very indicative of this.
Plus, what did the trials of Lion-O really teach him? 1. Trust your instincts; how is this different from trusting what the book of omens told him? Does it somehow make it better if his instincts told him to go up instead of the BOO telling him to? 2. Cheat AKA Go for the shortcut; I have nothing against taking things easy but I'm not really sure what the message here is since they keep mentioning he likes to do things the hard way. I'm sure the actual message should be 'keep your eyes on the goal and look at different angles to win as much as possible' but it really came off as 'learn to take it easy' which isn't really something I think a King should be taking as a trial. 3. Abuse your power as king; to be fair, didn't a lot of people complain he was doing that? And didn't he order them to follow him in ep15 and there was still a lot of complaining? Didn't he basically say 'no, we're not surrendering' in episode 14 and yet people still surrendered? I'm not sure how this trial even helped. 4. Recognise your own fears; This was pretty much the only trial that I thought felt like an actual trial. He wasn't trying to beat Tygra so much as he was trying to get over his own feelings of inadequacy. None of the other trials had this. |
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1. Yeah, what is the lesson here? It should have been more of a 'look before you leap' lesson if they were trying to show what he did wrong at the beginning of the episode. Not trusting anything blindly, but investigating first. 2. I much preferred the Cheetara trial from the OS, since that one taught him about determination in the face of impossible odds whereas this one taught him... what exactly? Maybe 'keep your options open?' but they didn't elaborate on it well. 3. THIS. This trial annoyed me the most. The only way this trial makes any sense is if you take the lesson not as 'give orders' since like you say he does that all the time, but more as 'even if they complain, you make them shut up and do what you tell them.' But that is not what was shown. The problem has never been Lion-o forgetting he was king, the problem was always everyone ELSE acting like he's not the king. And a fair number of his orders are dumb, but if he's the king that should be irrelevant. It's not the subject's job to decide if the king's order is good. 4. Agree with this too. This one at least addressed a serious internal character flaw and growth lesson. The only problem I had with it is it's a flaw they've addressed multiple times and, seeing as how it wasn't solved, will likely address again. I get that this is a major character theme, but they need to be careful not to let it get repetitive. |
The King thing seems like a different take on the whole friendship aspect. I will sacrifice myself to save my people. I will sacrifice myself to save my friends.
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As strange as this sounds, after some contemplation, I kind of hope they keep this triangle thing going. Hear me out first because I know this sounds a little crazy.
It's kind of like "If you're going through hell, keep on going before the devil knows you're there". I feel that if everything was said, done, and over that it would leave us with the triangle being the most frustrating thing that has occurred in the show for us fans. Maybe....by keeping it going, they can attempt to repair the damage it's caused? Or hell, maybe it will become SO bad it passes infinity, loops back around and becomes something incredibly glorious. Kind of like YOR: hunter from the future. Also, as a completely unrelated side note: If they DO have Pumyra with Lion-O, I am kind of hoping she'll be taller than him like Cheetara. I don't know why but ever since "Legacy" I am kind of digging the idea of couples where the woman is taller than the man. Or maybe I just thought Panthera was just that cool. |
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So I watchied both Trials episodes this past weekend as my friends wanted to watch them. I have mixed feelings about them. They were good, but they felt rushed. This should have been at least a 3 parter, maybe even a 4 or 5 parter. The trials felt way too quick, the movement of events went too fast, and there seemed to be no real sense of danger with the characters. No one really acted the way they would have when they thought Lion-O died. Lion-O's death felt cheap without any actual consequences, The battle with Mumm-Ra was over way too quickly, which is the one thing this series has disappointed me on, the underuse of Mumm-Ra. There have been episodes without him even making an appearance. I don't expect him to fight all of the time, I rather like how they are doing it, but he feels more like an anime villian that just sits there in the shadows instead of doing anything himself. It wasn't bad, but it seems like these days 5 part story arcs are a rarity as if they think the audience is going to have ADD and not watch the rest of the arc. They need to realize that their audience watches/watched DBZ, and if you can watch that show religiously, you can handle a simple 5 part story.
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Pumyra is not going to join the group. This is about the cast hey have now. It would be a insult to women. It would show her only role is a love interest. |
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Course that's all my assumption, but if they have to continue this triangle it's the only good way I can see it continuing. Not a big fan of Lion-O just acting jealous, and T/C just acting "Cutesy" with each other, kind of a one sided triangle there. Going back to what somebody said about the lessons of the trials, and how they don't really work I agree and it just goes back to that consistency problem. Lion-O learns a lesson, and he either forgets it to learn it again in a different ep, or already knew that lesson and was implementing it though the team would belly ache. So if something happens in the next episode where there's some problem with whatever Lion-O does or forgets, and the series goes to it's second season status quo, I'll know the writers are pretty much like the writers of Lost, they don't know what to do with their characters, or their story. |
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